Plus, kids don't always age a huge amount around that time. We only see them from the back and that final scene is set-up to be identical to his memory, except for them turning around. Now, from behind, would say, a four year old look so different from a six? Oh and earlier, you were trying to remember if Arthur knew Mal? He absolutely did. Ariadne asked him what was she like, and he replies simply, but earnestly, "she was lovely".
Quote from: Jon on July 25, 2010, 01:44:32 PMNow if Cobb isn't dreaming at the start, it in no way writes off any of the other intrigue you have discussed, in fact it fits in even neater that Caine (can't remember character name) could be more important than we think. His comment, "come back to reality", contriving Ariadne's (I was getting her name wrong too!) involvement and her similarity to mythology may be synonyms for us, the audience, to help us understand their involvement, but not an explicit reference to what they are doing. Typical narrative structure to strengthen the idea, but not actually be part of it if you see what I mean.Caine's character is Miles..I can spell his name right at least. lol I do think he has been more involved than he seems. And that comment about coming back to reality seems very important...along with the fact that he is the one who gets Ariadne involved.Ohhhh...just remembered something. At first Ariadne wasn't supposed to go into the dream, but she talked her way into it over Cobb's objection. Cobb said he promised Miles, but he was convinced by her. So maybe that is also pointing to her manipulating him into dealing with his issues. If she wasn't in the dream, she could push and prod at him like she did.
Now if Cobb isn't dreaming at the start, it in no way writes off any of the other intrigue you have discussed, in fact it fits in even neater that Caine (can't remember character name) could be more important than we think. His comment, "come back to reality", contriving Ariadne's (I was getting her name wrong too!) involvement and her similarity to mythology may be synonyms for us, the audience, to help us understand their involvement, but not an explicit reference to what they are doing. Typical narrative structure to strengthen the idea, but not actually be part of it if you see what I mean.
Quote from: Jon on July 25, 2010, 02:19:40 PMWe have a man grieving so much for his dead wife, he can't let go of her. He holds himself responsible and this guilt is stopping him moving on. He can't do his job properly and he has essentially become something he never would have while she was alive: a thief. He's only a thief so he has an excuse to stay on the run and not face up to the truth. It's his crutch, and his selfish attitude is making him keep away from his kids. He thinks he has to, but he just needs a push in the right direction. Face up to her memory, accept the truth and look to the future.Right. I had forgotten he said something about having to become a thief because of the problems. I don't think he originally set out to steal ideas from the dreams of others. That does work as a reason to stay away from them. When he talked to them on the phone he said he had to work. I agree he needs to be pushed to deal with the issues tied to Mal so he can fully move on.
We have a man grieving so much for his dead wife, he can't let go of her. He holds himself responsible and this guilt is stopping him moving on. He can't do his job properly and he has essentially become something he never would have while she was alive: a thief. He's only a thief so he has an excuse to stay on the run and not face up to the truth. It's his crutch, and his selfish attitude is making him keep away from his kids. He thinks he has to, but he just needs a push in the right direction. Face up to her memory, accept the truth and look to the future.
Ok. That's what I was thinking, but I wasn't sure I remembered right. Also, in the first part of that dream that we see..which would be the second dream..when Cobb is talking to Saito about training him to protect his mind and all that. Do we know if Saito was already suspicious? Or was it just because Mal found him and blabbed? I can't remember for sure, but I think I remember Arthur and Cobb talking like they think he is suspicious. I do remember the carpet tipping him off in the other part of that dream. Though do you think he really would have noticed that sort of detail if he hadn't had at least a little training in protecting himself? And didn't he say something after that about his projections showing up and dealing with them, only to have the architect say it was his dream instead? So the more I think about it, the more I think Saito had at least a little bit of knowledge and training.
Though I have wondered, if Cobb is wanted for murder and can't set foot in the country, then how can Saito make that go away with one call? Who the heck is he?
Ok. Though maybe having those goons from that company after him is part of the set up to try to push him into the job for Saito..and into position for whoever - I'm thinking Miles is the mastermind if this happened - to have inception done on him to let Mal go. So maybe Saito is in on the...master plan even at that point, and something else would have happened in the dreams to cause things to go wrong.Wait!! I just remembered. Cobb gets information from the safe in the part of the dream when Mal shows up. But in the other part of the dream, he says that part of the information is missing, that Saito had it locked away deeper or something like that. That could be the set up for the job to go wrong from the beginning, so then Saito would have the reason to go to Cobb and offer the other job. So that first job to get information from Saito could have all been a set up. If it was, I'm thinking Arthur might known something about it. He does seem to want Cobb to deal with things. I would still go with Miles as the Mastermind. Saito could be someone else that Miles trained..he'd done it before with Cobb. I get the feeling that Miles has been concerned with Cobb's state of mind for a while, and he wants the kids to see their dad again. Once Cobb took the bait so to speak, and went to Miles for an architect, then the rest of the plan went into motion.
I honestly can't remember how the kids looked. I get that when he remembers them, they always look the same. I'm just not sure they look the same ages at the very end when he sees their faces, or if they are wearing the same clothes. I know some people think they are. Also, we don't know how much time has passed. We don't know how long he's really been away from them, so they may not have changed a lot. Or if -and this is a big if - if he'd been stuck in a dream, time passes faster in the dream...so depending on how long he was dreaming, not as much time may have actually passed in reality. If he'd gone a few levels deep, a lot of time could pass. Though, if he was already that deep, I don't know that he could go deeper like he did for the Fisher job. Ack.. Well anyway, the main point is we don't know how much time has passed since he last saw his kids.
I took Miles' use of the term "reality" in this conversation more figuratively than literally (which may be what you two are saying there, me just not seeing it ). So we are now saying, that there was two inceptions going on. One for Fischer and another one for Cobb at the same time. I like this idea. While it seems a bit coincidental, and assuming Fischer was in on it would weaken his storyline, I do like it. Then again, Cobb's closure with his wife is not so much an inception that just him being prodded (good term here ) to the point where he can make up his mind (then again, that is how inception is supposed to work).Question is, does it just happen to work out like that (Ariadne being a bit nosy and "just doing it") or was it all planned (Miles waiting for th opportunity to have a go at it, which finally came).
I am not seeing it written here, but maybe it's supposed to be between the lines:Cobb is not going hime to his kids because the poilice is looking for him! At least that is what he and Miles talk about when they meet at the auditorium in the university in Paris(?). Since it's something that Miles says ("is it safe to come here?" or so) I don't think it's only in Cobb's mind.
Actually, in that big mansion type building they have the encounter with Saito and Mal, they want Saito to become suspicious. He is only supposed to reveal the secret to them after they wake up. From what I thought they hadn't found anything in the mansion, they wanted the answers in the small room with the bath tub, where Saito was supposed to think he had just woken up from a dream.
At this moment is the one of the two major concerns I have! (The other still being the age of the kids.) Thanks for bringing it up again, I almost forgot about it.
I don't think he needed pushing, he had already accepted Saito's job at that point. Whether Saito was in on it, maybe even from the beginning, is something Jon discussed earlier (if I understood him correctly) and is something I should ponder about more.The first job for Saito was set up by Saito as a test. Cobb passed the test (as he alomst succeeded), only the architect failed. It was cute how the missing information was represented by black lines on the paper Cobb was reading.
I am still hesitant to think that Cobb's "inception" was set up from the beginning, as that does weaken the story of Fischer. The Fischer story is actually very good and I loved the reveal of his father's line: "I am disappointed you tried." Beautiful. Not even obvious right away; at least I had to take the words in for a second to see what they actually meant. And indeed just the seed for an idea that he should live his own life, not imitate his father's, therefore moving on completely differently.
I am not sure they actually say it, but assuming that the main stroy is not a dream, I'd say two or three years have passed, at least. Hmmm, do they maybe mention that is has been two years since Mal's death...? Anyway, it must have been more than just a few months.The kids, even we only see them from behind, are very young, maybe 2-4 years old. So, adding the years of absence to that they would have to look significantly different/older than before, which they don't. In fact, they clearly look like they did in the dreams, I think even wearing the same close
I hope it's not just something overlooked in continuity and we are over-thinking it now My friend and me discussed this and we concluded that when he sees them for the first time in years his brain makes them look almost the way they were when he left, and shortly after he brain will allow him to see them how they are now (after the credits started to roll). I think this goes along with what Jon was saying.
I'm think I am leaning more in the direction that there are two inceptions going on.
I think if that is what is going on, then I think there has been some kind of planning instead of Ariadne just deciding on her own to push and prod at Cobb about Mal. I'm thinking that Miles had the basic idea for the plan for a while and was just waiting for the right opportunity to put it in motion. Depending on how much Miles knew about the problems that Cobb was having with Mal, he may have know that Cobb didn't act as the architect anymore. It does sort of seem like Cobb hadn't actually said it until that conversation, but if Miles and Arthur knew each other, Arthur could have shared that little tidbit.Or I could be over thinking again.
If there was sort of legitimate work with dreams or not. I can't remember if it was mentioned or not. Hmmm.
I kept forgetting to bring that up too. That right there is probably the biggest thing that would make me think more of the movie is a dream. I can't remember if it was said for sure or not, was Saito in charge of the company he worked for?
The first job wasn't for Saito. Some company - I can't remember the name of it now - hired Arthur and Cobb to get some kind of information was Saito..that was what Cobb was after in the mansion or whatever when he got the papers out of the safe. He failed because Saito somehow managed to lock a crucial part of information away deeper..and then Saito noticed the screw up with the carpet. Remember before Saito tries to convince Cobb to take the job, Cobb and Arthur and planning to leave because whoever hired them - Cobb mentioned the company at that point - would know that they failed. Then Saito turned up in the helicopter with the architect and then left him behind, saying that other company - again the name was used - would deal with him. It was because they failed that the goons were after Cobb in Mogadishu. Saito used the situation to help convince Cobb to take on his job of doing the inception on Fisher. At least that is how I understood it.
The more I think about it, the more I think that Fisher's story is very strong as well. He doesn't seem to receive as much attention, but, the confrontation with him and his dad in level 3 is very powerful. If Cobb's inception..or whatever..was planned out, I don't think the Fisher job was necessarily part of the plan now. I think that was a legitimate job - well as legitimate as that type of job can be. Whoever planned to try to get Cobb to deal with Mal and those issues had a basic plan I think, and then just waited for the right opportunity. So in that case, Fisher's story isn't weaker. Whoever planned out things in regard to Cobb - I still think Miles for that - probably wanted a situation in which they had to use several dream layers for the plan to be effective. When Cobb when to Miles asking for an architect, that presented the perfect opportunity.
I don't remember hearing anything indicating how long it has been since Mal died or how long it has been since Cobb left the kids. It probably was longer than a few months, but I don't think we really know. I also don't remember if the kids looked different or not at the end. I need to see the movie again..probably several times. Though I may come up with new ideas after every time I watch the movie. lol
Depending on how long he had been away from them, he possibly would see them as he had in his memory at first..especially as they were outside again. Though the fact that they are outside in basically the same place he last saw them may be an indication that he is in a dream at that point.
On the one hand I like that idea, on the other something tells me that from a film-making standpoint that might be overkill.
Well, it would clearly make sense that Miles would do somewthing like that. BTW, I am very sure Miles and Arthur knew each other; if it's not mentioned then it's a strong gut-feeling.
Maybe not legitimate work, but at least research...? Or stuff for the government? Especially the latter is out of the question if you are a wanted murderer.
Maybe Jon remembers...
I was sure Saito mentioned that the job was a test; maybe I misunderstood. But you are right, so maybe while somebody else wanted stuff from Saito, Saito himself was looking for someone himself and used the opportunity to find a person who can do such thing. After all, he not only needed someone who was good in retrieving information, he wants to go one step beyond.
Ok. So..Jon? Does that idea make sense to you? Or was I grasping too much?Quote from: AchimNot sure they say it. Just looking at what had to have happened between the time he left the USA and the beginning of the movie I assumed it must have been a few years. He had to set up his ilegitmate business and run at least a few jobs to have a reputation. Can't do that in just a few months. Also, it seems like setting up a job takes quite soime time too, with the architect having to do his/her stuff and all the investigations to be done ahead of time.True...it probably did take a while to start doing that. It did seem like each job required a lot of prep just so everything would be right...researching the person..the architect designing stuff and teaching the design to the main dreamer and all that. Hmmm...Quote from: AchimI think that is simple. They were outside because it's summer and it is warm. It's the same place, becuaes it's the garden of his own house.However, they seemed to play in the very same style we had always seen them do. That's more what I was thinking...it was the same style or same position as the..projections of them that he saw at times.Remember in level 2 of the Fisher job, he was seeing projections of the kids in the hotel once or twice. Why didn't anyone else notice them?
Not sure they say it. Just looking at what had to have happened between the time he left the USA and the beginning of the movie I assumed it must have been a few years. He had to set up his ilegitmate business and run at least a few jobs to have a reputation. Can't do that in just a few months. Also, it seems like setting up a job takes quite soime time too, with the architect having to do his/her stuff and all the investigations to be done ahead of time.
I think that is simple. They were outside because it's summer and it is warm. It's the same place, becuaes it's the garden of his own house.However, they seemed to play in the very same style we had always seen them do.
Whoa! Ok, I don't believe Saito is in charge of the company Cobb worked for. I'm sure they mentioned something about energy and how whoever controls the majority will be a Superpower, hence why he wants the other company broken up (probably so he can buy it). It is just hinted that Saito is incredibly powerful and someone at that level would have a degree of influence at the Government and could make the charges go away.That brings me onto Cobb being on the run. Earlier when I said he was using it as an excuse to keep away, it is very important to realise that I meant the threat was absolutely real. There are charges against him and he will be arrested as soon as he sets foot on American soil. That's why I mentioned Bones; her dad is a murderer. That was never disputed. It adds meaning to decision to stop running and face up to the problem. You only run if you think you're guilty...I really like this idea of two inceptions going in. Miles could just have been waiting for the opportunity to plant Ariadne and therefore Saito is genuine. Or maybe in on it to a degree, but as a means to his own ends.
Whoa, too. So, Saito's power is simply that of the ultra-rich and, ahem, powerful (well, yeah, probably not good to over-think this one).Seems we now found a spot where we are all comfortable Two inceptions. One ordered by Saito, one initiated by Miles.So, the only remaining mystery: Did he dream at the end or was it real. Although, we all seem to prefer to think that he was awake and home.So, would anyone also complain, that despite all the brain-tickling and engaging story, it sadly lacks in emotional investment...? While I was engaged enough as it is, I heard this a few times and must agree, I did not particularly care (in a stronger sense) about any of those people. This is probably based on the fact that only Cobb's character is somewhat 3D and the others fall a little flat.
Quote from: Achim on July 27, 2010, 03:01:26 AMSo, would anyone also complain, that despite all the brain-tickling and engaging story, it sadly lacks in emotional investment...? While I was engaged enough as it is, I heard this a few times and must agree, I did not particularly care (in a stronger sense) about any of those people. This is probably based on the fact that only Cobb's character is somewhat 3D and the others fall a little flat.I did want to see Cobb get home to his kids. I did like the others well enough, though I didn't feel as...invested I guess. I did feel more interested in Fisher later, and I thought the scene in the dream with his dad was very well done.
So, would anyone also complain, that despite all the brain-tickling and engaging story, it sadly lacks in emotional investment...? While I was engaged enough as it is, I heard this a few times and must agree, I did not particularly care (in a stronger sense) about any of those people. This is probably based on the fact that only Cobb's character is somewhat 3D and the others fall a little flat.
Same for me. Characters are likable, and sure I was hoping Cob will get home. But, di you at least well up when Fischer got "the real sentence" from his dad (funny, as in fact it's the sentence he himself wants to hear) or when Cobb final saw the faces of his kids again? I mean, I had animated toys make me cry twice in one movie, but here...nothing Well, maybe not nothing, but just some internal relief, rather than joy. You know what I mean?Well, maybe calling it a "complain" was too strong.
Who else thought the dream training for Ariadne was cool as hell? When she and Cobb and talking at that little outdoor cafe and then stuff starts blowing up...then when Ariadne starts rearranging the city and folds a chunk of it up and over? And then they go and walk up a street.
And that fight that Arthur got in in the hallway of level 2 of the dream while weightless. That was freaking awesome.
Author
Topic: [SPOILER] Inception - Discussion (Read 17446 times)
