Topic: [SPOILER] Inception - Discussion

[Dragonfire]

Thank you

[RossRoy]

hahaha that's funny! Never thought splitting the thread would kill the discussion! (ok I haven't read the spoilers, so maybe the discussion was over to begin with)

[Dragonfire]

I'm waiting for Achim to return after the last post I made.

[Achim]

So, I am removing the spoiler tags from the quote and also my previous posts, as the whole thread is now marked as a spoiler.

One thing I read suggested that the top or whatever spinning at the end was like a kick for the audience to take us back to reality.

While it can be read that way, I don't think it's all that simple and probably not actually meant that way. It is clearly there as Cobb's totem and the slight shake is a nudge towards however one wants to interpret the ending. It goes along nicely with the idea that the whole film was a dream, but I'd want to see it again to fully accept that concept. I do remember that some of the shots in the airport scene seemed a little awkward.

The thing with his wedding ring wasn't going along with the idea that everything was a dream.  Someone just pointed when he was wearing it early in the movie..and then that he wasn't during the scenes that were supposed to be reality.  So this person believes that if the ring is there at the end, it is still a dream, but if it isn't, then he is awake.  I definitely remember seeing the ring early in the movie, though right now, I can't remember in which scenes exactly.  I also know I didn't notice it in the last scene.  So that is definitely something I want to watch for when I see it again...that probably won't be until I get the Blu-ray, but I will get it.  I will more than likely pre-order it.

As we already agreed, this is a major hint that may help decide about the ending. However, it obviously would break the above theory of the entire film being a dream I am not even sure right now which one I would prefer

This made me think. If the movie is indeed a dream entirely, it would seem his wife is trying to get him back out. Why is she basically representing herself as the villain though? I see how he didn't believe her, that they are not in reality, the first time (when she jumped), so why does she pop up in his dreams when he with growing strength believes she is dead (up to the point at the end that he is finally able to let go of her). Wouldn't it be better to stay away from him and lure him more with the kids? Hmmm, yes, I see how she wants to see him (as she still loves him), but there must have been better ways than appearing as the villain.

And, just now I realize the "leap of faith" is a recurring element. It is at least used by Saito when he convinces Cobb to take the job and then of course by Mal when she wants him to jump. there are probably other moments where they use this?

About Saito - the Japanese guy - being older than Cobb at the end.  Time passes at different rates in dreams.  The deeper you go, the more time passes in the dream.  Cobb was talking about that during the planning for the job.  They would be asleep for like 12 hours...that would be 2 weeks in the first dream level...6 months in the second..and I think they said 10 years in the third.  Saito died in the dream.  I'm not completely sure which level though.  I know he was in bad shape in the third level - the snow fortress or whatever.  I think he was dead in that level of the dream when Easme got back there after setting the charges for the kick.  Maybe Saito died in all the dream levels.  Something else I'm unsure of and need another viewing - or several - to figure out.  But Saito died and ended up in limbo before Cobb.  It wasn't that long before, but it was long enough for decades to pass.  Limbo is a deeper level, so time goes even faster there..at least that is how I understand it.  Cobb and his wife spent 50 years in limbo, but they didn't age in reality..it was just hours.  Also with the passing of time,what was just a matter of seconds in the first level translated into like 20 minutes in the third level.  So a few minutes would easily be years..decades, in limbo.

I had my own answer for this already, but I wanted to see your response without any knowledge what I think, sorry about that. So, yes, obviously I agree. Took me a few minutes at the time to figure it out, as I a) had to think back to make sure they had "died" on different levels and b) until that time I had assumed that the level where Cobb meets his wife is in fact limbo already. So, since Cobb dies in the "top level" (as he drowns in the truck) and Saito dies at the third level and even before Cobb, he spent obviously much more time in limbo.

Why did Saito ask Cobb whether he wants to kill him? Had he assumed they had failed? He knew they hadn't, no? Or did he think that they had succeeded but simply got stuck in the dream, and now angry/Cobb is out for revenge?



It is interesting how discussing one plot points sometimes leads to new question to other plot points

[Dragonfire]

So, I am removing the spoiler tags from the quote and also my previous posts, as the whole thread is now marked as a spoiler.

While it can be read that way, I don't think it's all that simple and probably not actually meant that way. It is clearly there as Cobb's totem and the slight shake is a nudge towards however one wants to interpret the ending. It goes along nicely with the idea that the whole film was a dream, but I'd want to see it again to fully accept that concept. I do remember that some of the shots in the airport scene seemed a little awkward.

I did think it was kind of an interesting idea - the totem still spinning, but wobbly and then the screen going dark - being a kick for the audience, I don't think it is meant that way either.  It fits for Cobb to use the totem at that point.  Though he does seem to loose interest once he sees his kids.  He walks away while it it still spinning..like he doesn't care if it is stuck in a dream anymore.  There is more than one possible explanation for that...and I'm still thinking about it and really not sure what I think yet.  When I saw the movie and he got home to the kids, I was glad he was home.  Then the totem was shown, still spinning away.  I immediately though Oh shit he's still in a dream.  Then it wobbled, so I had hope again..then the black screen.  I was waiting for something else to pop up on screen and I was a little..irked when the credits started instead.

I just had a thought.  Well...I sort of had a thought, but then I remembered something else that put an end to that theory before I could fully develop it.   
I was thinking that since Cobb was able to hug the kids at the end, that would be reality...until I started remembering how they were interacting with the various projections in the other dream levels.  And Cobb and Mal interacted in limbo together.  Arthur even had that wonderfully cool fight in the spinning hallway.  So.  Never mind that idea.   

As we already agreed, this is a major hint that may help decide about the ending. However, it obviously would break the above theory of the entire film being a dream I am not even sure right now which one I would prefer

  I know.  I can see things that support both theories..at least I think I remember things correctly for that.  It would give everything a different spin if it was all a dream.  I do know I'll be trying to pay close attention to when his ring is visible when I see the movie again.  Although...if Cobb is really trapped in a dream, then whenever the ring is visible wouldn't mean squat.  Well..I suppose it would indicate when he thought he was in a dream and when he thought it was reality. 

I read one idea that someone shared about it all being a dream.  At the beginning when he washes up on the beach and he looks up and sees Mal and the kids.  This one person thinks that is the reality.  The family is at the beach for the day and Cobb just fell asleep.  The kids are trying to wake him up and he isn't ready to wake up yet.  So in his dream he is trying to get back to them.  I don't think that theory works that well...too much doesn't work as well if that is the case. 

This made me think. If the movie is indeed a dream entirely, it would seem his wife is trying to get him back out. Why is she basically representing herself as the villain though? I see how he didn't believe her, that they are not in reality, the first time (when she jumped), so why does she pop up in his dreams when he with growing strength believes she is dead (up to the point at the end that he is finally able to let go of her). Wouldn't it be better to stay away from him and lure him more with the kids? Hmmm, yes, I see how she wants to see him (as she still loves him), but there must have been better ways than appearing as the villain.

That is a very good question. Hmm... I don't know.  If she is trying to get him back to reality, then it doesn't seem to make sense that she would act that way...interfering with things.  Hmmmm....I'm thinking, if Mal had been right when she jumped and she was now trying to get Cobb out, then when she popped up in the dreams, why didn't she do something to kill him so he'd wake up?  Why did she just interfere with the job and threaten Arthur or other people?  Yes it probably would have been difficult for her to do that to him, much like how he had trouble shotting the projection of Mal in the snow fortress, but it seems like that would be a more logical action for her to do to try to get him out of the dream.

Something else I've thought of that would tie back into the idea that Mal was right and Cobb was stuck in the dream.  From what I remember when Cobb told Ariadne about when he and Mal were in limbo, he didn't mention using sedatives or doing dreams within dreams.  He just said they explored deeper into dreams, which is ambiguous since he didn't say how they explored deeper.  If they didn't do dreams within dreams, then I would think that he had been right, and when they died in limbo, it woke them up to reality.  So when she jumped, she truly did die.  Hmmmm.

I'm thinking that if Mal was right, then at the very least they had to have used some sort of sedative when they were dreaming and that the sedative prevented them from waking up when they died..which caused them to be stuck in limbo for so long.  So when they killed themselves there, they would have just gone up to the level they died in.  Maybe.  But from what was shown, when they woke up after being in limbo, they were just laying on the floor in their house.  It didn't look like anything traumatic had happened.  Hmm.  When Ariadne left Cobb, she jumped out of the building..then she moved back up through the other levels one by one.  But she and Cobb got there just by going to sleep in the third level dream.  I thought you had to die in a dream to get to limbo.  Ok..I think I just confused myself more.   

And, just now I realize the "leap of faith" is a recurring element. It is at least used by Saito when he convinces Cobb to take the job and then of course by Mal when she wants him to jump. there are probably other moments where they use this?

I think Cobb said it to Mal when they were getting ready to try to leave limbo.  Maybe.     Ack...I need to see the movie again.  One of the guys might have had something about taking a leap of faith after stuff went wrong in the first dream.  And I think Cobb says it to Saito at the end...when it seems like they are still struggling to remember things.  I think they exchange some other phrases too...about a train and it not mattering where it is going..what Cobb and Mal said to each other before dying in limbo.  I can't remember for sure though.  Yet another reason to see the movie again.

I had my own answer for this already, but I wanted to see your response without any knowledge what I think, sorry about that. So, yes, obviously I agree. Took me a few minutes at the time to figure it out, as I a) had to think back to make sure they had "died" on different levels and b) until that time I had assumed that the level where Cobb meets his wife is in fact limbo already. So, since Cobb dies in the "top level" (as he drowns in the truck) and Saito dies at the third level and even before Cobb, he spent obviously much more time in limbo.

That's ok.

Why did Saito ask Cobb whether he wants to kill him? Had he assumed they had failed? He knew they hadn't, no? Or did he think that they had succeeded but simply got stuck in the dream, and now angry/Cobb is out for revenge?

I think - and I could be wrong - that Saito had been in limbo so long, that he wasn't sure what was happening.  From what was said about limbo, it is supposed to be a very..disorienting experience.  And Saito had been there for decades, so I think it makes sense that he couldn't remember right.  Some of the dialog ..about sort of remembering someone from a dream..and the little top thing.
Ohhhhhh that reminds me.  After Cobb is first brought in, the guards - I guess Saito's projections - show him the gun and the top thing.  The totem.  And Saito spun it, saying he had seen it before.  I think it kept going, but I can't remember now.  And when it went back to that part at the end of the movie, I don't remember if it showed the little top thing spinning again or not.   

It is interesting how discussing one plot points sometimes leads to new question to other plot points

Yes it is.  I've already comes up with more myself.

One thing about the totems.  I know I remember Arthur saying he couldn't let Ariadne touch his ..and about how everyone was supposed to keep that personal so they could tell if they were dreaming or not.  If they were in their own dream, then wouldn't their totem act like it would in reality since they knew how it acted?  For example, if it was Cobb's dream, wouldn't his little top thing fall over anyway?  Or would the the architect have to design the totem for it to show up in the dream too?      I've confused myself again I think.  lol   

I think I'm done for now.

[Critter]

I removed my spoiler tags too.

[Dragonfire]

I took out my spoiler tags too.

[Critter]

I am probably seeing this again in the next couple of days. I will be able to contribute more to discussion then I think, when I can properly wrap my head around it.

[Dragonfire]

Ok. 

Try to remember if you can see his ring or not in the last scene.

[Najemikon]

Well, I just watched this thing, so now I've been trying to catch up with your comments.

First things first, 'scuse the French, but... this film is fucking awesome!  

Ahem.

Your discussion has centred on several things:

Totem spinning or not, may represent dream: Ok, but are you sure that the spinning was considered important? Whenever Cobb snatched it out and spun it to centre himself, they never made a point of showing it spinning to the point it stopped. In fact, he grabbed it himself mid-spin when Saito surprised him (or at least it wasn't explicitly shown either way). Only when he demonstrated it to Adriane do we see it stop.

You mentioned that it was strange he shared it. Demonstrating it is fine, but letting someone else touch it diffuses it. I'm wondering...

a) This is Mal's totem not his. What was his totem when he was dreaming with Mal?
b) What is the significance of Mal locking her totem away in their world?
c) At the end, is it more significant that he walks away from the totem to hug the kids than whether it stops spinning or not? Understandable to run to the kids instead, but he never left it before and by doing so he is allowing it to become compromised if someone else picks it up
d) and while on the subject of totems, is there a clue to Adriane's choice of a chess piece?

Ring signifies dream status: Not sure about this. It would be interesting to take a closer look, but my first thought was, wouldn't Cobb's own perception decide if there was a ring or not?

Mal is invading the dreams to persuade Cobb to leave: I don't think this is really Mal. I think it is a projection. He said himself to her at the end, "you are not my wife" and that's important. It's the theory of Uncanny Valley again! You know deep down when something isn't right and he knows this isn't Mal.

Plus he also said, you have no control over your sub-concious. I think that is very important. His sub-concious is manifesting the "seed of an idea" rattling around in Cobb's mind; the idea being Mal's inception that it is all a dream. The best way for that seed to grow naturally is have it represented by Mal screwing with his plans because that is the psychological idea of transferring guilt and sub-consciously you self-sabotage. You want something to happen, but you can't let it happen, so project the will to do that thing onto someone else. "Oh no! Look what Mal did! Ah, well... tut."

Now, I want to add my own idea into this mix... Saito. I'm wondering if there is more to him, though it may undermine the "it was all a dream!" ending...

Is Saito manipulating Cobb from the beginning? Consider the first Architect, the one who gets the rug wrong. Saito is ruthless in leaving him to be dealt with and I was having a problem with the film seemingly setting up Saito as a bastard and then softening him into a team member. But the more I thought about it, the more I think he is playing a part to gain Cobb's trust, if you believe Saito is in Cobb's dream.

Consider that we didn't see the dream set-up on the train. To paraphrase the film, "can he remember how he got there?". Could the team -including Saito- have ambushed Cobb, rather than the other way around?

Urgh... now I'm spinning myself out because there is something else to consider.

Is Cobb dreaming the whole thing or is he part of someone elses from the start? Mal or Saito, maybe...Remember the idea that you train your sub-concious to fight for you and it manifests the thugs? Were the gunmen in Mogadishu really from that company, or... I'll leave it there!

I read in one of the interviews/reviews that Nolan isn't interested in red herrings. What you see is honest. I suppose it just might not be everything you need to fully understand it...

[Dragonfire]

I read your post Jon and I want to respond to it in more detail..so I will be back a bit later when I have more time to think out what I want to say. And possibly confuse myself again.

[Achim]

It fits for Cobb to use the totem at that point.  Though he does seem to loose interest once he sees his kids.  He walks away while it it still spinning..like he doesn't care if it is stuck in a dream anymore.

Great point!

There is more than one possible explanation for that...and I'm still thinking about it and really not sure what I think yet.  When I saw the movie and he got home to the kids, I was glad he was home.  Then the totem was shown, still spinning away.  I immediately though Oh shit he's still in a dream.  Then it wobbled, so I had hope again..then the black screen.  I was waiting for something else to pop up on screen and I was a little..irked when the credits started instead.

It was exactly the same for me. It is mostly likely exactly what Nolan intended The fact that the kids look so young throws you off, then you see the totem and think it's confirmed and then it wobbles. Again, the point here is t have the viewers almost decide for themselves whether it's a dream or not. While there are probably hints and a second viewing will make things clearer, after the first viewing we are left alone to figure it out.

For a summer blockbuster, most certainly a ballsy move

That is a very good question. Hmm... I don't know.  If she is trying to get him back to reality, then it doesn't seem to make sense that she would act that way...interfering with things.  Hmmmm....I'm thinking, if Mal had been right when she jumped and she was now trying to get Cobb out, then when she popped up in the dreams, why didn't she do something to kill him so he'd wake up?  Why did she just interfere with the job and threaten Arthur or other people?  Yes it probably would have been difficult for her to do that to him, much like how he had trouble shotting the projection of Mal in the snow fortress, but it seems like that would be a more logical action for her to do to try to get him out of the dream.

Hmmm, yes, she should have just killed him, should have done the trick. But, isn't it a major hint either that she appears, no matter whose dream they are in? Especially not all of those dreamers should really know her, right? I think I am getting more and more comfortable with the idea, that ALL of it was a dream

Something else I've thought of that would tie back into the idea that Mal was right and Cobb was stuck in the dream.  From what I remember when Cobb told Ariadne about when he and Mal were in limbo, he didn't mention using sedatives or doing dreams within dreams.  He just said they explored deeper into dreams, which is ambiguous since he didn't say how they explored deeper.  If they didn't do dreams within dreams, then I would think that he had been right, and when they died in limbo, it woke them up to reality.  So when she jumped, she truly did die.  Hmmmm.

I'm thinking that if Mal was right, then at the very least they had to have used some sort of sedative when they were dreaming and that the sedative prevented them from waking up when they died..which caused them to be stuck in limbo for so long.  So when they killed themselves there, they would have just gone up to the level they died in.  Maybe.  But from what was shown, when they woke up after being in limbo, they were just laying on the floor in their house.  It didn't look like anything traumatic had happened.  Hmm.  When Ariadne left Cobb, she jumped out of the building..then she moved back up through the other levels one by one.  But she and Cobb got there just by going to sleep in the third level dream.  I thought you had to die in a dream to get to limbo.  Ok..I think I just confused myself more.   

Well, yes, he did say they were doing dreams within dreams without drugs or at least less strong ones. I thought that the main point of the drugs was to keep the people sedated and that dream-within-a-drwam was particularly easy to wake up from. I did not see it as a prerequisite.

Yes, I believe only dying in the dream will get you to limbo. Saito died in the fortress and went to limbo and Cobb drowned in the truck. But I am not sure it was made clear that Cobb and Mal were in limbo...? I thought they had just rrached a rather low level, which was where they built all those houses and buildings, the entire city. It's the same place Cobb and Ariadne get to towards the end, where they look for Robert Fischer and find Mal. But again, why did Mal pop up here, when it's not Cobb's dream? It's supposed to be Fischer's dream? Or at least someone elses, who is not very familiar with Cobb?

Hmmm, so maybe it's Cobb's overall dream and maybe Mal isn't killing him, because it's not her but just her projection indeed?

I think - and I could be wrong - that Saito had been in limbo so long, that he wasn't sure what was happening.  From what was said about limbo, it is supposed to be a very..disorienting experience.  And Saito had been there for decades, so I think it makes sense that he couldn't remember right.  Some of the dialog ..about sort of remembering someone from a dream..and the little top thing.

Ohhhhhh that reminds me.  After Cobb is first brought in, the guards - I guess Saito's projections - show him the gun and the top thing.  The totem.  And Saito spun it, saying he had seen it before.  I think it kept going, but I can't remember now.  And when it went back to that part at the end of the movie, I don't remember if it showed the little top thing spinning again or not.   

Nor do I.

Isn't the scene in the beginning cut that so that it appears to be part of the actual opening dream, where they try to retrieve Saito's secret as a test?

One thing about the totems.  I know I remember Arthur saying he couldn't let Ariadne touch his ..and about how everyone was supposed to keep that personal so they could tell if they were dreaming or not.  If they were in their own dream, then wouldn't their totem act like it would in reality since they knew how it acted?  For example, if it was Cobb's dream, wouldn't his little top thing fall over anyway?  Or would the the architect have to design the totem for it to show up in the dream too?      I've confused myself again I think.  lol   

I understand that the totem is a reality marker. Something where only oneself knows a) what it is (most ideal) and b) the consistency (weight, texture, etc.). If you go into a dream willingly or it is your own dream, to get to have your totem. If you don't have your totem with you in the dream or if it has different specifications, then it's a sign that you are in someone else dream and you were brought there without knowing it. And architect is not supposed to be able to design any totems.



One thing I have still not been able to quite make sense of, or fit it in the above theories:
When he asks his(?) father to provide an architect the father suggests to do it himself. I think Cobb's answer was "Mal won't let me."?
What does that mean? She is supposed to be dead!

[Dragonfire]

Well, I just watched this thing, so now I've been trying to catch up with your comments.

First things first, 'scuse the French, but... this film is fucking awesome!  

It is isn't it?

Totem spinning or not, may represent dream: Ok, but are you sure that the spinning was considered important? Whenever Cobb snatched it out and spun it to centre himself, they never made a point of showing it spinning to the point it stopped. In fact, he grabbed it himself mid-spin when Saito surprised him (or at least it wasn't explicitly shown either way). Only when he demonstrated it to Adriane do we see it stop.

That is true.  I was just going by how Cobb said it worked for Mal anyway.  I don't remember him saying how it worked for him.  He just said that when it was Mal's totem, it would spin without stopping in a dream.  I did wonder if it worked the same for him or not..I believe I forgot to mention that here before.  I thought he grabbed it when Saito surprised him because he didn't want Saito to see it or to know that he was doubting reality.  Saito is already holding the possibility of him getting back to his children over his head..maybe Cobb thought that Saito would see checking the totem as a weakness.

You mentioned that it was strange he shared it. Demonstrating it is fine, but letting someone else touch it diffuses it. I'm wondering...

a) This is Mal's totem not his. What was his totem when he was dreaming with Mal?

I did wonder what he used before he took over the totem.  I also wondered if that top thing was truly his totem or if he had something else that he never showed anyone.  I did read a theory somewhere that maybe he and Mal shared the totem originally...though that doesn't seem likely to me.  A lot of importance is placed on everyone having their own and not letting others hold it or know how it works.

b) What is the significance of Mal locking her totem away in their world?

I thought she did that as a way of blocking out the truth from herself that they were in a dream.  When Cobb is telling Adriane about what happened, he mentions how Mal had locked something away, deep inside.  It had already been set up in the movie that people would frequently have important stuff locked in a safe in a dream.
I am wondering something now because I can't remember for sure.  Was the totem really in the safe, or did Cobb put it there?  Was it actually shown laying in the safe before he started it spinning?

c) At the end, is it more significant that he walks away from the totem to hug the kids than whether it stops spinning or not? Understandable to run to the kids instead, but he never left it before and by doing so he is allowing it to become compromised if someone else picks it up

I'm thinking he did that because he decided he was going to accept that as reality regardless of what a little spinning doodad did.  I don't think he was concerned about someone else compromising it at that point.  He said the job for Saito was going to be his last.  If it didn't work, he'd be hauled off to jail, and if it did work and Saito did what he said he could, then Cobb would be going home to his kids.  If he was stuck in a dream, he was still going to be with his kids and not do any more work, so he wouldn't need the totem anymore.

d) and while on the subject of totems, is there a clue to Adriane's choice of a chess piece?

I'm thinking it probably is a clue to something.  Like she is the chess master or something.  Arthur knows that Cobb is having issues with Mal showing up in the dreams, but he really doesn't push it too much.  Adriane does.  She keeps pushing Cobb to talk about Mal and what happened.  Then Adriane starts prodding him to confront her in a dream.  Adriane's actions in regard to those things does support the idea of an inception actually being done on Cobb, with Adriane being the one to plant the idea.  If that is the case, I could see Miles being behind it.  When they meet and Cobb talks about the job, Miles tells him to come back to reality.  I think Miles was concerned about Cobb and the issues he was having regarding Mal.  From what Cobb said, Miles taught him how to do the dream sharing stuff, so Miles could possible pull that off.

Then there is also Adriane's name itself possibly being another clue.  I can't remember exactly now, but Adriane is the name of the goddess of the maze or something like that I think.  Or someone named Adriane led one of the gods out of a maze.  I need to look it up again.  The first time she and Cobb meet, he has her draw mazes as a test.  The levels of the dream are described as mazes at least once.  That could work with the theory that the inception is being done on Cobb as well.  Though if it was, I wonder was anything shown reality?  And if it was, why would Saito go along with the plan?  Hmmmm.  

Ring signifies dream status: Not sure about this. It would be interesting to take a closer look, but my first thought was, wouldn't Cobb's own perception decide if there was a ring or not?

Probably.  Like I said, that is something I read somewhere else.  I noticed that he had a ring on early in the movie, though I can't remember exactly which scene now, and then I stopped noticing if it was there or not.  Somehow I suspect that I'd forget to pay attention the next time I see the movie.  I can see myself getting caught up in everything again.
Also with this ring idea, if everything was a dream, but Cobb thought that part of it was real, then he would probably be without the ring if he had stopped wearing it after Mal seemed to die.  

Mal is invading the dreams to persuade Cobb to leave: I don't think this is really Mal. I think it is a projection. He said himself to her at the end, "you are not my wife" and that's important. It's the theory of Uncanny Valley again! You know deep down when something isn't right and he knows this isn't Mal.

Plus he also said, you have no control over your sub-concious. I think that is very important. His sub-concious is manifesting the "seed of an idea" rattling around in Cobb's mind; the idea being Mal's inception that it is all a dream. The best way for that seed to grow naturally is have it represented by Mal screwing with his plans because that is the psychological idea of transferring guilt and sub-consciously you self-sabotage. You want something to happen, but you can't let it happen, so project the will to do that thing onto someone else. "Oh no! Look what Mal did! Ah, well... tut."

I think I'm leaning more to Mal being Cobb's projection as well.  Like you said, he tells her that she isn't his wife..she is only a pale imitation or something like that.  Also, I'm thinking if Mal were really alive and trying to get him out of the dream, she wouldn't be so destructive to whatever job is going on.  Like how she shows up during the meeting with Saito and then pulls the gun on Arthur.  And like I mentioned before, if Cobb was stuck in a dream and she was trying to get him out, it seems like she could have just killed him to get him out of the dream.  Or knocked over his chair or something - like was shown with Cobb being pushed back into the bathtub at first..and then how they pushed Arthur over a few times and he woke up during the fall.  Part of the whole kick thing.  

I think I'm leaning more toward the idea that Mal did die and Cobb feels horribly guilty since he originally planted the idea when they were in limbo to get her to leave.  I'm thinking if an inception was done on Cobb, it was just to get him to let go of the guilt he was feeling.  He didn't seem to want to deal with anything connected to Mal until Adriane started pushing him on those things.  Even when Mal shows up in the dream with Saito, he brushes off Arthur's concern over her being there.  The projection of Mal would show up and screw things up because of the guilt he felt over her death.  Like you said, the subconscious self sabotage thing.

Now, I want to add my own idea into this mix... Saito. I'm wondering if there is more to him, though it may undermine the "it was all a dream!" ending...

You just want to confuse me more don't you?  

Is Saito manipulating Cobb from the beginning? Consider the first Architect, the one who gets the rug wrong. Saito is ruthless in leaving him to be dealt with and I was having a problem with the film seemingly setting up Saito as a bastard and then softening him into a team member. But the more I thought about it, the more I think he is playing a part to gain Cobb's trust, if you believe Saito is in Cobb's dream.

Very good question.  I have wondered a bit about Saito too.  That's true with the first architect..and with all the preparation and planning that they put into the jobs, it seems like that shouldn't have been missed.  And how Saito already knew so much about what was going on during both of those dreams.  Saito is very questionable and there isn't enough shared about him.  Though the same thing can be said for most of the characters.  

Consider that we didn't see the dream set-up on the train. To paraphrase the film, "can he remember how he got there?". Could the team -including Saito- have ambushed Cobb, rather than the other way around?

Very good point.  We have no idea how they got there, so it does raise the question..does Cobb know?  Very interesting idea.  
So...if we go with that theory, why do you think the team ambushed Cobb?  Do get him to let go of the guilt associated with Mal's death?  To get him out of a dream he's stuck in?  Some other reason?

Urgh... now I'm spinning myself out because there is something else to consider.

Now you know how I've felt since I saw the movie on Wednesday.  

Is Cobb dreaming the whole thing or is he part of someone elses from the start? Mal or Saito, maybe...Remember the idea that you train your sub-concious to fight for you and it manifests the thugs? Were the gunmen in Mogadishu really from that company, or... I'll leave it there!

If the entire thing is a dream, then I think I'm leaning in the direction of Cobb being the one dreaming.  Maybe.  I've thought that if someone else is dreaming, to possibly do the inception on Cobb for whatever reason, then perhaps it is Miles, trying to help Cobb.  To get him to stop doing that sort of work..stop feeling guilty about Mal.  Cobb and Miles seem close, so Cobb might have explained how a projection of Mal keeps popping up and screwing things up.  Hmm.

Ohhh..that reminds me.  One thing I read the other night suggested that when Cobb is running through Mogadishu that he is in a dream then.  The person who made that suggestion pointed out how so many thugs are chasing him and also how that alley or whatever gets so narrow and he seems stuck, but then he just gets out just in time.

I read in one of the interviews/reviews that Nolan isn't interested in red herrings. What you see is honest. I suppose it just might not be everything you need to fully understand it...

But honest to what?  Some of what happens can be interpreted in more than one way.  One person's red herring is another's truth.  I'm sure it is honest to what Nolan wanted the movie to depict.  We just don't know exactly what that is.

I did get my new Entertainment Weekly today and there is an article about Inception in it.  I need to read that.  

[Dragonfire]

Great point!

Or maybe it is more that he has decided to accept that as reality and not depend on a little spinning whatever to tell him what is and isn't real.

It was exactly the same for me. It is mostly likely exactly what Nolan intended The fact that the kids look so young throws you off, then you see the totem and think it's confirmed and then it wobbles. Again, the point here is t have the viewers almost decide for themselves whether it's a dream or not. While there are probably hints and a second viewing will make things clearer, after the first viewing we are left alone to figure it out.

For a summer blockbuster, most certainly a ballsy move

I think that is what Nolan intended too.  I think he knows what he is doing with his movies.  Least that is how it seems. 

Definitely a ballsy move for a summer blockbuster.  And that the studio went with it and released the movie in the middle of the summer.  Usually anything remotely like this would be regulated to spring or fall.  The Prestige was released in like October, and I think it was a limited release too.  This one was a huge release.  It does seem like Nolan can make whatever the hell he wants now, and considering what he does make, that's a good thing.  Hopefully people will continue to support his movies.

Hmmm, yes, she should have just killed him, should have done the trick. But, isn't it a major hint either that she appears, no matter whose dream they are in? Especially not all of those dreamers should really know her, right? I think I am getting more and more comfortable with the idea, that ALL of it was a dream

Maybe not that huge of a hint.   Regardless of who the main dreamer is, all of them are dreaming.  They are sharing the dreams.  So since she is lurking around in Cobb's subconscious or where ever, then she can turn up in whatever dream he goes into.  She is less likely to do that if Cobb doesn't know as much about the ..set up of the dream.  Which is why he no longer acts as the architect.  If he designs stuff, because she is part of his subconscious, then she will know all the layout too and be free to pop up who knows where no matter who the main dreamer is.  So for the job for Saito, Cobb got Adriane to be the architect and he didn't want to know anything ahead of time about the layout of the levels.  Then when they were in level 3 and he asked her is Eames - can't remember his exact name now - did any modifications to the level, Mal shows up right after Adriane tells him what the changes were and shoots Fisher, potentially ruining everything.  As long as Cobb didn't know the specifics, like in the first 2 levels, Mal couldn't show up and cause trouble at that point.  Though I'm not sure why she was able to pop up at the beginning with Saito, unless Cobb wasn't as careful about not finding out stuff ahead of time.

Well, yes, he did say they were doing dreams within dreams without drugs or at least less strong ones. I thought that the main point of the drugs was to keep the people sedated and that dream-within-a-drwam was particularly easy to wake up from. I did not see it as a prerequisite.

Maybe without drugs the dream within a dream isn't that difficult to wake up out of.  With the dream within a dream with Saito, to get Cobb out of the second dream, he was knocked back into the bathtub full of water..that was the kick to get him out.  On the train, they woke up after the machine thing was turned off.  I think.  So maybe there has to be a kick for a dream within a dream.     If they just go one level deep, they wake up when the machine goes off. 

Yes, I believe only dying in the dream will get you to limbo. Saito died in the fortress and went to limbo and Cobb drowned in the truck. But I am not sure it was made clear that Cobb and Mal were in limbo...? I thought they had just rrached a rather low level, which was where they built all those houses and buildings, the entire city. It's the same place Cobb and Ariadne get to towards the end, where they look for Robert Fischer and find Mal. But again, why did Mal pop up here, when it's not Cobb's dream? It's supposed to be Fischer's dream? Or at least someone elses, who is not very familiar with Cobb?

It is shown during that first part with Saito, that dying in a dream normally wakes you up.  Remember, after Mal shows up with Saito and pulls the gun on Arthur, Cobb shoots Arthur himself.  And Arthur then wakes up in the first level dream.  Limbo is brought up after the team is in the first dream and things have stated going wrong with Fisher's projections and Saito is shot.  Someone - maybe Eames - wants to kill him then, thinking he will wake up, but Cobb stops him.  Because of the sedation that they were using to be able to go 3 levels deep, if they died in the dream, the drugs would keep them from waking up until it wore off.  So they would be in limbo. 

After limbo comes up, Cobb mentions that he had been there before for decades.  I think it is a little later when he talks to Ariadne and starts telling her that he had been in limbo with Mal.  If I remember right, he explains a little at first.  Then later in the movie, he gives a fuller explanation for how they started creating everything in limbo and then how once they woke up, Mal didn't accept it was real and all that.  Also when limbo comes up in level 1, even though the guys didn't seem to know it was a possibility of ending up there, they knew about it.  It might have been Arthur who said that if any of them died in the dream, they would end up in Cobb's version of limbo since he'd been there before.  If no one in the group had been to limbo before and someone died, they'd end up in some kind of empty void - I can't remember exactly how it was described now.

In level 3, at the snow fortress, when Mal turns up, she shoots and kills Fisher.  Since he died in the dream while under sedation, he went to limbo.  He was technically part of the group, so he went to Cobb's version of limbo.  Mal was able to show up to shoot Fisher to begin with because Ariadne shared the information about the ducts that Easmes added to the design.  Once Cobb heard that, Mal also knew, and there she was.  I get that they were in danger at that point, but it wasn't good for Cobb to hear that about the design.  He knew that once he knew, Mal could show up - which is why he wanted to know nothing ahead of time and he told Ariadne not to show him anything when she tried to ask a question that one time.  Cobb should have let Ariadne talk to whoever on the walkie talkie..probably had to be Eames.  I think the others were dreaming in other levels.  Anyway, Ariadne should have talked while Cobb stuck his fingers in his ears and went "La La La" or something until she was done talking.  Though I guess that would have looked silly.     But it would have kept Mal from being able to show up and add another complication.  Although, I just had a thought.  Maybe Cobb subconsciously wanted Mal to show up and do something so that he could finally confront her.

So..where was I?
Fisher is in Cobb's version of limbo.  Cobb and Eames are ready to give up when Ariadne says they can follow Fisher into limbo.  Eames stays and sets charges that will provide a kick so they can get back out.  I think, though I'm not completely sure, that Cobb is the dreamer at that point.  Fisher can't be because he is dead in that level of the dream.  Maybe that is how they can get to limbo by dreaming because Cobb has been there before.  I'm not completely clear on that point.  But, from what is said, where they end up is limbo.  Mal is able to show up there - and earlier on level 3 - because she is part of Cobb's subconscious.  She is like the manifestation of his guilt over her death..which is why she is destructive in some way when she does turn up.  Telling Saito what is going on..jumping at Ariadne when she encounters her in Cobb's dream - when Ariadne saw him dreaming and decided to join him to find out what was going on.  Trying to get Cobb to stay there with her.  She keeps causing some sort of trouble until Cobb confronts her once and for all.

Hmmm, so maybe it's Cobb's overall dream and maybe Mal isn't killing him, because it's not her but just her projection indeed?

I think the Mal that keeps showing up is a projection.  Like I said, I think she would have killed him to wake him up or something if it really was her. 
Ooo..  I just had another thought.  If Mal was right and she really woke up when she jumped and Cobb is still in the dream, then maybe she wouldn't want to do that sort of dreaming again.  She might be afraid of getting caught up in the dream again since it happened to her before.  She could have gone to others for help to get Cobb out..like Arthur and Miles.  Hmmm.  I did it again.  lol   

Nor do I.

Isn't the scene in the beginning cut that so that it appears to be part of the actual opening dream, where they try to retrieve Saito's secret as a test?

I didn't think so.  Though at the time I wasn't exactly sure what was going on.  In the scene in the beginning, Saito says that he saw one of those before about the totem..in a dream long ago..something like that.  I can't remember if Cobb says anything at that point or not.  Then it jumped back to show Cobb and Arthur talking to the younger Saito.  I'm thinking the bulk of the movie is sort of like...Cobb and Saito remembering everything while in limbo.  Or maybe just Cobb remembering since some of that stuff Saito wouldn't have known.  It does sort of seem like it had taken Cobb a while to find Saito, so even though he'd been in limbo before, he was still disoriented.  At least I think he was.

I understand that the totem is a reality marker. Something where only oneself knows a) what it is (most ideal) and b) the consistency (weight, texture, etc.). If you go into a dream willingly or it is your own dream, to get to have your totem. If you don't have your totem with you in the dream or if it has different specifications, then it's a sign that you are in someone else dream and you were brought there without knowing it. And architect is not supposed to be able to design any totems.

I couldn't remember if it said for sure if the architect was supposed to be able to design the totems or not.
Hmm...so...if you are in your own dream, you would know what your totem is and how it is supposed to work - spin, fall whatever.  So if you are the one dreaming, then wouldn't the totem act like it is supposed to in reality because you know what it is supposed to do?   

One thing I have still not been able to quite make sense of, or fit it in the above theories:
When he asks his(?) father to provide an architect the father suggests to do it himself. I think Cobb's answer was "Mal won't let me."?
What does that mean? She is supposed to be dead!

I think he means that if he acts as the architect, then since he'd know the design, his projection of Mal could pop up and cause some kind of trouble.

[Achim]

Maybe not that huge of a hint.   Regardless of who the main dreamer is, all of them are dreaming.  They are sharing the dreams.  So since she is lurking around in Cobb's subconscious or where ever, then she can turn up in whatever dream he goes into.  She is less likely to do that if Cobb doesn't know as much about the ..set up of the dream.  Which is why he no longer acts as the architect.  If he designs stuff, because she is part of his subconscious, then she will know all the layout too and be free to pop up who knows where no matter who the main dreamer is.

While I remember that Cobb described the reasoning behind him not being the architect like that, I thought he also mentioned that the dream is populated by the dreamer's subconscious. They also described twice (once Cobb, once Arthur) how the population created by the dreamer can turn on "aliens" in the dream, just like they attacked Ariadne during her first session. maybe it's because Cobb has done this so much, that his subconscious is able to add population to other people's dream...?

Maybe without drugs the dream within a dream isn't that difficult to wake up out of.  With the dream within a dream with Saito, to get Cobb out of the second dream, he was knocked back into the bathtub full of water..that was the kick to get him out.  On the train, they woke up after the machine thing was turned off.  I think.  So maybe there has to be a kick for a dream within a dream.     If they just go one level deep, they wake up when the machine goes off.

No matter what dream level, you need a kick to wake up "early", which can be provided in the dream through death or falling from heights or a physical shock OR it can be provided outside the dream (bathtub drop). I believe this works for dream and dream-in-dream. However, since for the main job they needed three levels, they needed stringer drugs, which in turn would making it impossible to wake up to reality from any kick. It still works to use a kick from one level to the next.

It is shown during that first part with Saito, that dying in a dream normally wakes you up.  Remember, after Mal shows up with Saito and pulls the gun on Arthur, Cobb shoots Arthur himself.  And Arthur then wakes up in the first level dream.  Limbo is brought up after the team is in the first dream and things have stated going wrong with Fisher's projections and Saito is shot.  Someone - maybe Eames - wants to kill him then, thinking he will wake up, but Cobb stops him.  Because of the sedation that they were using to be able to go 3 levels deep, if they died in the dream, the drugs would keep them from waking up until it wore off.  So they would be in limbo. 

After limbo comes up, Cobb mentions that he had been there before for decades.  I think it is a little later when he talks to Ariadne and starts telling her that he had been in limbo with Mal.  If I remember right, he explains a little at first.  Then later in the movie, he gives a fuller explanation for how they started creating everything in limbo and then how once they woke up, Mal didn't accept it was real and all that.  Also when limbo comes up in level 1, even though the guys didn't seem to know it was a possibility of ending up there, they knew about it.  It might have been Arthur who said that if any of them died in the dream, they would end up in Cobb's version of limbo since he'd been there before.  If no one in the group had been to limbo before and someone died, they'd end up in some kind of empty void - I can't remember exactly how it was described now.

In level 3, at the snow fortress, when Mal turns up, she shoots and kills Fisher.  Since he died in the dream while under sedation, he went to limbo.  He was technically part of the group, so he went to Cobb's version of limbo.  Mal was able to show up to shoot Fisher to begin with because Ariadne shared the information about the ducts that Easmes added to the design.  Once Cobb heard that, Mal also knew, and there she was.  I get that they were in danger at that point, but it wasn't good for Cobb to hear that about the design.  He knew that once he knew, Mal could show up - which is why he wanted to know nothing ahead of time and he told Ariadne not to show him anything when she tried to ask a question that one time.  Cobb should have let Ariadne talk to whoever on the walkie talkie..probably had to be Eames.  I think the others were dreaming in other levels.  Anyway, Ariadne should have talked while Cobb stuck his fingers in his ears and went "La La La" or something until she was done talking.  Though I guess that would have looked silly.     But it would have kept Mal from being able to show up and add another complication.  Although, I just had a thought.  Maybe Cobb subconsciously wanted Mal to show up and do something so that he could finally confront her.

So..where was I?
Fisher is in Cobb's version of limbo.  Cobb and Eames are ready to give up when Ariadne says they can follow Fisher into limbo.  Eames stays and sets charges that will provide a kick so they can get back out.  I think, though I'm not completely sure, that Cobb is the dreamer at that point.  Fisher can't be because he is dead in that level of the dream.  Maybe that is how they can get to limbo by dreaming because Cobb has been there before.  I'm not completely clear on that point.  But, from what is said, where they end up is limbo.  Mal is able to show up there - and earlier on level 3 - because she is part of Cobb's subconscious.  She is like the manifestation of his guilt over her death..which is why she is destructive in some way when she does turn up.  Telling Saito what is going on..jumping at Ariadne when she encounters her in Cobb's dream - when Ariadne saw him dreaming and decided to join him to find out what was going on.  Trying to get Cobb to stay there with her.  She keeps causing some sort of trouble until Cobb confronts her once and for all.

The limbo part now clearly needs another viewing from me. I thought only dying will do it, but you are right, the place where Fischer was (where they meet Mal), is obviously supposed to be limbo. Oh, yes, now I remember though. That level was limbo already and he had left shortly when the kick happened, which made him wake up in the truck just to drown shortly after.

So before, Mal and Cobb where in a level (maybe 3), where they grew old, died and therefore went to limbo? That brings me back to the question why they didn't wake up, as they didn't use drugs as strong.

I think the Mal that keeps showing up is a projection.  Like I said, I think she would have killed him to wake him up or something if it really was her. 
Ooo..  I just had another thought.  If Mal was right and she really woke up when she jumped and Cobb is still in the dream, then maybe she wouldn't want to do that sort of dreaming again.  She might be afraid of getting caught up in the dream again since it happened to her before.  She could have gone to others for help to get Cobb out..like Arthur and Miles.  Hmmm.  I did it again.  lol   

Not sure why it confused you, it makes good sense to me.

Isn't the scene in the beginning cut that so that it appears to be part of the actual opening dream, where they try to retrieve Saito's secret as a test?

I didn't think so.  Though at the time I wasn't exactly sure what was going on.  In the scene in the beginning, Saito says that he saw one of those before about the totem..in a dream long ago..something like that.  I can't remember if Cobb says anything at that point or not.  Then it jumped back to show Cobb and Arthur talking to the younger Saito.  I'm thinking the bulk of the movie is sort of like...Cobb and Saito remembering everything while in limbo.  Or maybe just Cobb remembering since some of that stuff Saito wouldn't have known.  It does sort of seem like it had taken Cobb a while to find Saito, so even though he'd been in limbo before, he was still disoriented.  At least I think he was.

The bold part is what I meant. Without showing reality in between we move from the scene that is repeated at the end of the movie right into the dream that represents the test for Saito. So, upon first viewing we may think that t's all part of the same dream, only at the end do we realize where the split was.

I couldn't remember if it said for sure if the architect was supposed to be able to design the totems or not.
Hmm...so...if you are in your own dream, you would know what your totem is and how it is supposed to work - spin, fall whatever.  So if you are the one dreaming, then wouldn't the totem act like it is supposed to in reality because you know what it is supposed to do?   

I think that's the key point. If the architect can imitate your totem he can make you believe you are in reality, which is to be avoided at all cost!

So, yes, if only you know your totem, what it feels like and how it behaves, then you can make sure you're in reality. The point is the reverse, coming from the angle that it's not your dream! If it is not your dream, then your totem will be missing or it will feel/behave differently, hence you are in a dream. The totem is less important in a dream created by yourself. I think this is called a false positive or such? Having the totem be o.k. will not show you whether your dreaming or awake, as it might be your own dream. However, if the totem is not o.k., that's when it's telling you something.

Darn, Mark Kermode pointed it out in his review, but next time I watch I also must pay attention again in whose dream they are at what point.

I think he means that if he acts as the architect, then since he'd know the design, his projection of Mal could pop up and cause some kind of trouble.

Yes, I think that's what he meant. It was probably just a very efficient dialog piece.