Topic: Dystopian futures

[lovemunkey187]

Rewatched Equilibrium, again this morning. It's a film from a genre that I quite enjoy.

Something made me winder today though.

In all of these type of films why do they only ever find classical music and not stuff like this or this?

Or on the literary side of things, why is it books of poetry? I have no Yeats or any other poetry, well unless you count that thing about Beowulf. Why are they always the lovely leather bound editions as well? why isn't it some scabby, dog-eared copy of Sven Hassel, Jefferey Archer or Terry Pratchett?

[DJ Doena]

Yeah, they often seam to forget the 20th century in the future.

Is the same with Star Trek, they read Shakespeare and listen to Mozart.

[Najemikon]

Shame on you. This thread may appear thoughtful and well composed, but in fact, it's a poor attempt to cover up your desire to inflict the Cheeky Girls on the world!  

Actually, it's an interesting thought. First of all, popular culture even at it's finest is popular because it's been filtered and copied countless times. Art happens for a distinct reason, while popular culture tries to make it relevant. For true art you need to go back to the most pure and disciplined form. In music, that would be classical. In literature, Shakespeare, ancient philosophy and poetry. Especially the latter because although I don't like it, I always think of poetry as being about an emotion, whereas, much as I prefer Pratchett, his characters rely on satire. Thoughtful commentary on clouds and summer days will be more use to someone looking for reason to keep running from Terminators, rather than jokes about a suitcase that follows it's owner around and eats people...

But still, that stuff actually does exist, yet as you say, no-one ever finds it in these futures! My take on it is that for a future like that to happen, society would have to go through a huge shift, instigated by a government through aggressive tactics. Many people would panic and run for the hills, possibly forming a rebel group. Over the years this group will thin and die off, and the new, dystopian future will be in place. All controversial material/contraband will have been destroyed and forgotten between generations. All that will have survived would be whatever the original rebels tried to rescue, and hide, in the hope of inspiring the futures children.

So, lets say Gordon Brown has just murdered the Royal family, installed himself as dictator of communist Britain. The secret police are marching through the streets, cleansing and burning. Tripods have been sighted on the horizon. Decision time: fall to your knees and succumb; or run for that old den you know about near Matlock. You're going to run? Quick! Grab important stuff! Don't forget your Godfather boxset, and you mustn't leave... Porkys!!??!!

Actually you probably won't care about any of it, but a scholarly expert who owns the leather bound Yeates collection and Beethoven sheet music may believe it's too precious to leave. So in terms of the story, it makes sense to me that only the best does survive, to be found and appreciated by future generations, who will be inspired by the beauty of the art to rebuild a better world. Can you imagine a world built on the gospel according to Dude Where's My Car? 

Or maybe the director just doesn't want to date his film by having his characters find an X-Factor Annual, rather than the Bible! 

This idea is also linked to the Red Dwarf theory that a child's doll is made from special, indestructible plastic so that it can be found later on for an emotional touchstone... 

[Achim]

Can you imagine a world built on the gospel according to Dude Where's My Car? 

Didn't, in a way, Bil & Ted's Bogus Journey explore that idea?

[DJ Doena]

Can't agree with Najemikon.

Shakespeare and classical music is considered art and it's considered to be better than most stuff from the 20th century.

We like to glorify the past. But in fact, Shakespeare wrote his works to live from it, just like any 20th century artist.

But we have this whole idea that these artists were something pure that lived only for their art just because we didn't live in the same time.

[Najemikon]

hmmm... 

I wouldn't like to say that classical art is necessarily "better" than modern. Certainly I am no collector of such things and I don't see them through rose-tinted spectacles, but if you were trying to preserve something as an influence, you need to pick something generic and dependable.

Music is as much a science as an art. There's a right and a wrong way to do it. Composers like Beethoven discovered or at least popularised the correct formulas and that's what everyone has been using since, whether they know it or not.

You only have to consider film scores. Not themes, but cues especially. They don't play certain chords in the hope you'll enjoy it, they do it to communicate with a basic human emotion, be it scary, sad, funny or whatever. Classical music is telling a story by manipulating those reactions. That's what I mean when I say it is the most pure.

There is a great scene in Mr. Holland's Opus that demonstrates this. The kids in a music class are bored with learning and performing classical pieces. They want to learn Rock n' Roll. Richard Dreyfuss as Mr. Holland does a demonstration by playing a record of what they want to use (the Beach Boys, I think), and then comparing with a classical recording. Instruments be damned, they sound the same and the kids realise that they are learning the building blocks. How they apply it (Rock n' Roll, whatever) later on is up to them. 

With Shakespeare it's not as clear, but certainly he identified all the levels of the human condition and presented them in all the basic genres. It's hard to read, but works in any language or setting. Same as mythology. Basic themes, popular or not, are important and repeated ad infinitum.

I don't know... to me it is kind of like saying you love a particular style of a building, but you can't be bothered with a brick. You can't have one without the other.

[DJ Doena]

They may or may have discovered it, but it doesn't mean their way of putting it is the best way it was ever done.

If I use classical music in Sci-Fi within the films logic (not as a score) and it plays some dozens or hundred years in the future that would mean that between Mozart and that time is no better/other music.

Nowadays the classical music is one genre amongst many others. People listen to all kind of music. Why should that be any different in the future? But who are the people that listen to classical music these days. Most of them belong to the upper middle class and higher. They are well educated and seldom poor.

Classical music is chosen because we (the audience) already know it and we can somehow connect to it. It is the least common denominator. The makers of that movie don't have to invent some future music. Who would have guessed in the 60s that music like Techno would ever exist?

No, I stand by my point, if someone in Sci-Fi listens to classic music or reads Shakespeare then only because the writers wanted to point out what a well-cultured character that is.

[Najemikon]

They may or may have discovered it, but it doesn't mean their way of putting it is the best way it was ever done.

If I use classical music in Sci-Fi within the films logic (not as a score) and it plays some dozens or hundred years in the future that would mean that between Mozart and that time is no better/other music.

Nowadays the classical music is one genre amongst many others. People listen to all kind of music. Why should that be any different in the future? But who are the people that listen to classical music these days. Most of them belong to the upper middle class and higher. They are well educated and seldom poor.

Again, you use a term like "best" and then go on to define who listens to it specifically, whereas I'm saying personal opinion or devotion has no bearing. Everybody has a basic understanding of classical music and we all hear it every day. Not because we've been over-exposed, but because it's the only truly reliable form. There have always been alternatives to classical, but it is the only generic form of music. Techno uses notes and arrangements, just the same, but it forces an opinion. And play it to someone from a hundred years ago if you could and you wouldn't like that opinion! They'd think they were on an alien planet.

Which is a good side-point. What did they put in the space probe years ago, in case it got found by another planet? Mozart, I'm sure. Possibly The Beatles too. Future generations might as well be aliens.

Btw, I like some classical in small doses. I am certainly not upper class and well educated. How dare you suggest such a thing! I'm a proud geek! 

No, I stand by my point, if someone in Sci-Fi listens to classic music or reads Shakespeare then only because the writers wanted to point out what a well-cultured character that is.

I think we're coming at this from different angles. I am in complete agreement with that point and it isn't just sci-fi. A typical stereotype is the wealthy gent listening to classical music. But on the other hand, that's a restriction of modern society, that the upper classes try to present it as exclusive. The great unwashed are just as capable of enjoying this stuff, but it isn't marketed to them at all. Kind of like Julia Roberts going to the Opera in Pretty Woman!

Anyway, yes, you're quite right there. Picard springs to mind as an example.

However, I'm specifically saying, lets say you know the end of the world if coming. What would you leave as a monument to human artistic achievement, to be found by someone with absolutely no knowledge or access to history? After the end of Planet of the Apes, imagine Charlton Heston found a pile of records. What should he choose to play to the mute, animal like girl he rescued? I say Mozart, rather than West Life. Certainly not bloody Techno! Actually, scrub that, I'd find a quiet cave and teach her a different sort of rhythm... 

[DJ Doena]

Everybody has a basic understanding of classical music and we all hear it every day. Not because we've been over-exposed, but because it's the only truly reliable form.

That's my point: it's only reliable because everybody has heard it sometimes. In western cultures everybody has learned about classics in school music classes.

There have always been alternatives to classical, but it is the only generic form of music.

It's generic ecause it is the oldest that uses the same kind of instruments that are still in use

Techno uses notes and arrangements, just the same, but it forces an opinion. And play it to someone from a hundred years ago if you could and you wouldn't like that opinion! They'd think they were on an alien planet.

Techno is less endurable. It's loud and fast. Classic is mostly slow and (in comparison to Rock or Techno) more quiet. That makes it more endurable. Doesn't mean that people like to listen to it.

Btw, I like some classical in small doses. I am certainly not upper class and well educated. How dare you suggest such a thing! I'm a proud geek! 

Me does like certain classical music. I went to the opera more than once. I just don't like that superior attitude that is given to that kind of music.

I think we're coming at this from different angles. I am in complete agreement with that point and it isn't just sci-fi. A typical stereotype is the wealthy gent listening to classical music. But on the other hand, that's a restriction of modern society, that the upper classes try to present it as exclusive. The great unwashed are just as capable of enjoying this stuff, but it isn't marketed to them at all. Kind of like Julia Roberts going to the Opera in Pretty Woman!

You expressed what I wanted to say very well.

Anyway, yes, you're quite right there. Picard springs to mind as an example.

Picard was the person I had in mind when I began this argument.

However, I'm specifically saying, lets say you know the end of the world if coming. What would you leave as a monument to human artistic achievement, to be found by someone with absolutely no knowledge or access to history? After the end of Planet of the Apes, imagine Charlton Heston found a pile of records. What should he choose to play to the mute, animal like girl he rescued? I say Mozart, rather than West Life. Certainly not bloody Techno! Actually, scrub that, I'd find a quiet cave and teach her a different sort of rhythm... 

Zefram Cochrane played Rock for the Vulcans at the end of Star Trek 8.

[Najemikon]

Zefram Cochrane played Rock for the Vulcans at the end of Star Trek 8.

Cool scene! What was the song, I can't quite remember? Magic Carpet Ride?

I think another point for using classical as a demonstration to another time or alien, is it normally involves an orchestra, which then implies discipline on a military scale. Teams of people working in very strict margins, controlled by a single man. A very clinical and controlled environment, producing something magical. That's a good advert for human capability and application. It also implies talent. Every member must be on top of their game. Pop music covers a multitude of sins.

I suppose I'm just old fashioned. Despite not being a huge fan of classical, I appreciate it because of the skill, technique and result. For instance, the sound a traditional organ makes, the sort you find in a cathedral, cannot be recreated or faked. It just isn't possible to synthesise it. It's that sort of purity and skill I'd want to represent music, above anything else. And it's classical music that gets played on organs!