Topic: Ashes to Ashes (Life on Mars sequel)

[Najemikon]

Life on Mars was the best show on the box, and if tonights first episode of the sequel is anything to go by, it's continuing the tradition. 

I feel sorry for people who don't live in range of BBC1. It's bloomin' great! If you don't know what I'm talking about, get the box sets. There was only two series of Life on Mars and it was fantastic.

[Najemikon]

This week one of the best TV phenomenons of the last few years came to end, finally answering fans questions about exactly what was going on.

No, I'm not talking about crappy Lost! I watched the last episode of Lost actually and I can't believe how full of itself, smug, pretentious it was. And all the while the big reveal could have been done at the end of the first season because everything that seems to have happened since then was just bollocks that the writers haven't bothered to tie off. I only watched the occasional episode and I would be so pissed off if I had committed myself to watching it regularly.

This is not the situation with the Life On Mars saga, which has also come to an end this last week. At the end of the original two series following Sam Tyler, trapped in the 70s, the end was ambiguous. Now there are two ways to see what the writers were thinking; "ambiguous" = "we want to treat the viewer with intelligence and respect", or "ambiguous" = "we haven't got a bloody clue what we're doing and we're making this shit up as we go!".

I was happy to live in ignorance and assume the former! After all, all five series together is barely half the running time of six years of Lost. After LoM came Ashes To Ashes. The first series, contrary to my opening post on this topic, turned out to be rather weak compared to LoM. Using a woman, setting it in the 80s and writing Sam off with a cursory "oh he died" line seemed so obvious a twist that the core idea had a lot to hold up. But Alex Drake was a character who knew what Sam Tyler had claimed on his brief return to his own time and so she spent the whole series telling people she knew they weren't real and were just constructs. It made for an unlikeable character, even when she ends up thinking like Sam: is it a dream, is it real? Still, it was fun while adding little to the mythology.

The second series found Alex still trapped in the 80s, but far more settled and it was a worthy successor to the illustrious predecessor. It also had a very intriguing plot with Alex being manipulated. At the end, she returns to her own time with a bang... but the story wasn't over.

Series 3 has been nothing short of phenomenal. Alex had been drawn back to Gene Hunt's time and now there was a new thread. Jim Keats, a very smooth and charming detective, via investigating the whole departments horribly outdated methods, has been tasked with proving Gene Hunt has been involved in murder. Alex is haunted by dreams of a young, murdered copper. The two are definitely linked so Jim and a reluctant, torn Alex, investigate the evidence. Alex at least hopes to prove Gene's innocence. Despite his gruff exterior, she knows he and Sam were close, but there is also the possibility that Gene killed Sam. Over the course of the series, each of the supporting characters (Chris, Ray and Shaz) are given key stories that go the centre of their psyches.

And so we come to the finale. On first viewing, I'd say this is one of the best TV endings ever. The secret has been revealed and while all the clues were there and I had worked out part of the possibility way back in LoM, I was not prepared for how brilliantly everyone is tied together and had their part to play.

I'm sure that this was the basic idea right from Life On Mars and while there have been occasional tweaks along the way, they are fair uses of artistic licence for the sake of intrigue and entertainment, that at no point undermine that central conceit. In fact, a repeat viewing of all five series might reveal more about those tweaks than I had previously noticed. It's such a brilliant setup that allows you to watch what is essentially a cop show without ever having to wonder too much about the overall idea! It tricks you into taking things for granted.

It was an exhilarating hour of TV that even if you were Mr. or Mrs. Perfect and knew exactly what was going on months ago, it was still special. Perfect performances, especially Philip Glenister as Gene Hunt (so much more than a one-joke character!), brilliant writing throughout and a playful visual style make this a gem that British TV can be proud of for years to come.

[snowcat]

Hmm, Jon I found

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Both Lost and Ashes to ashes to have similar endings :/ in that it didn't really answer anything.

I honestly felt that both were lazy.

Although my favoruite thing about both endings was this: At the start of both Season 1 of Lost and Life on Mars someone said (for Lost) Are they all in Limbo? the creators said no, its not religious. for Life on Mars someone asked "Are they all dead?" the creators replies No, they are not all dead. I guess I just feel let down by both. maybe I wanted some spectacular sci fi endings who knows ;/ I mean after all... Lost ended up being a mythological series and LoM / A2A ended up being general dramas 

[hal9g]

Doesn't look like this is on DVD yet (or scheduled for release).

[Najemikon]

It will be, Hal. Series 1 and 2 of Life On Mars is available on Blu-Ray and DVD. Series 1 and 2 of Ashes to Ashes is on DVD at least, with series 3 and a boxset of AtA planned.

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Both Lost and Ashes to ashes to have similar endings :/ in that it didn't really answer anything.

I honestly felt that both were lazy.

Although my favoruite thing about both endings was this: At the start of both Season 1 of Lost and Life on Mars someone said (for Lost) Are they all in Limbo? the creators said no, its not religious. for Life on Mars someone asked "Are they all dead?" the creators replies No, they are not all dead. I guess I just feel let down by both. maybe I wanted some spectacular sci fi endings who knows ;/ I mean after all... Lost ended up being a mythological series and LoM / A2A ended up being general dramas 

Emma, what are you smoking and can I have some?  Read this interview below...

People, do not read this link if you haven't seen the series: http://www.sfx.co.uk/2010/05/22/ashes-exclusive/

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Note that they explained to the US writers what the secret was, so they did know during our version what the ending was. Really, if they were asked directly, "are they dead?", they weren't going to say "yes" and screw up the whole thing, were they? He also accepts that it is rather low-key, but clearly he wanted to be faithful to the characters and I love it for that. You dismiss it as a general drama, as if they could have kept going forever. That is absolutely not true.

Actually I avoid all such speculation on a show like this, because fans are the worst people to listen to.

But what really confuses me is you saying there was no difference between the ending of LoM or Ashes!

Life On Mars, series 2: Sam leaps off a building in present day. Clearly he has realised what Gene's world might be and wishes to return. For the viewer it is the biggest clue yet that the other reality is purgatory, given that leaping from buildings is more likely to get you killed than comatose. But it is not explicit.

Ashes to Ashes, series 3: We learn Alex actually died at the start of series 3, so it is a purgatory dimension. Bear in mind this was not made clear, she could have still been comatose. But anyway basic suspicions are confirmed, but the structure is so much deeper. We learn Gene Hunt died in his 20s and he has become a gatekeeper of sorts; we learn that Ray, Chris and Shaz, are actually dead and being shepherded by Gene, the same way as Sam and Alex, except they had the advantage of not being dead when they first went there; we learn The Railway Arms is a gateway and Nelson is key to taking them to the next level; we learn almost exactly what Keats is.

We learn so much from that ending! Life On Mars was supposed to have a series 3, so Sam taking a dive wasn't the end. Ashes To Ashes was 3 series from the start and so this is it and they have been explicit.

What on earth was lazy about that? 

[snowcat]

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I guess I always felt it should have more then what I call a Dallas ending where everything can be explained by one thing either

1. Its all a dream
2. they are all dead and this is heaven/hell/ purgatory

I guess Im just a little bored of seeing that, but then again... how else could it have ended? 

[Najemikon]

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I guess I always felt it should have more then what I call a Dallas ending where everything can be explained by one thing either

1. Its all a dream
2. they are all dead and this is heaven/hell/ purgatory

I guess Im just a little bored of seeing that, but then again... how else could it have ended? 

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true, it is a rather typical ending in that respect, but consider that Ashes To Ashes is one of the very few examples that was designed to be so from the start. Maybe that was the case with Lost too, but they've left so much complicated stuff unexplained. And you've no idea where the island has come from. At least here we understand that it is a world constructed from and around Gene Hunt.

Usually these sort of "they're all dead!" or "it was just a dream!" are crutches for writers to get out of the crap story they've got trapped in.

Also there are no truly original stories left, so it's the characters that sell the ideas and these characters were superb. Gene Hunt is a modern icon!

[DJ Doena]

I have the first season of AtA on DVD and will watch it in the mid-summer season, right after I've finished Life on Mars S1+2 (UK)

[Najemikon]

Have you seen Life On Mars before? Well, in any case, as I've said before, the differences in the first season of AtA can be jarring. Still worth seeing and brilliant in its own way, but definitely didn't hit its stride until series 2.

[snowcat]

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I guess I always felt it should have more then what I call a Dallas ending where everything can be explained by one thing either

1. Its all a dream
2. they are all dead and this is heaven/hell/ purgatory

I guess Im just a little bored of seeing that, but then again... how else could it have ended? 

(click to show/hide)

true, it is a rather typical ending in that respect, but consider that Ashes To Ashes is one of the very few examples that was designed to be so from the start. Maybe that was the case with Lost too, but they've left so much complicated stuff unexplained. And you've no idea where the island has come from. At least here we understand that it is a world constructed from and around Gene Hunt.

Usually these sort of "they're all dead!" or "it was just a dream!" are crutches for writers to get out of the crap story they've got trapped in.

Also there are no truly original stories left, so it's the characters that sell the ideas and these characters were superb. Gene Hunt is a modern icon!

Hmm, im not denying that Gene is a great character

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Also, you say they leave the island un explained in Lost, Jon, im guessing you haven't watched all the series? the series quickly went from something that everyone assumed was a Sci Fi series to what is in reality a mythological story, the island is full of mythological stuff, its a Bermuda triangleesqu place. something which whilst is not officially stated at any point... you kinda work it out part way through, just like many plot points in LoM and A2A

Also, whilst there may be no original basic concepts left I think there are plenty of original stories left ;p after all, the story as a whole of both A2A, LoM and Lost are all very original, just the basic concepts that aren't maybe im an optimist? I just like to think that regardless of the 7 Plot points
1. [wo]man vs. nature
2. [wo]man vs. man
3. [wo]man vs. the environment
4. [wo]man vs. machines/technology
5. [wo]man vs. the supernatural
6. [wo]man vs. self
7. [wo]man vs. god/religion

There are still thousands of great stories waiting for me to watch! I also like to think that its not just a character that makes a story, but the story itself. Would LoM had been as effective set in today's society? I think not.

[Najemikon]

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I guess I always felt it should have more then what I call a Dallas ending where everything can be explained by one thing either

1. Its all a dream
2. they are all dead and this is heaven/hell/ purgatory

I guess Im just a little bored of seeing that, but then again... how else could it have ended? 

(click to show/hide)

true, it is a rather typical ending in that respect, but consider that Ashes To Ashes is one of the very few examples that was designed to be so from the start. Maybe that was the case with Lost too, but they've left so much complicated stuff unexplained. And you've no idea where the island has come from. At least here we understand that it is a world constructed from and around Gene Hunt.

Usually these sort of "they're all dead!" or "it was just a dream!" are crutches for writers to get out of the crap story they've got trapped in.

Also there are no truly original stories left, so it's the characters that sell the ideas and these characters were superb. Gene Hunt is a modern icon!

Hmm, im not denying that Gene is a great character

(click to show/hide)

Also, you say they leave the island un explained in Lost, Jon, im guessing you haven't watched all the series? the series quickly went from something that everyone assumed was a Sci Fi series to what is in reality a mythological story, the island is full of mythological stuff, its a Bermuda triangleesqu place. something which whilst is not officially stated at any point... you kinda work it out part way through, just like many plot points in LoM and A2A

Also, whilst there may be no original basic concepts left I think there are plenty of original stories left ;p after all, the story as a whole of both A2A, LoM and Lost are all very original, just the basic concepts that aren't maybe im an optimist? I just like to think that regardless of the 7 Plot points
1. [wo]man vs. nature
2. [wo]man vs. man
3. [wo]man vs. the environment
4. [wo]man vs. machines/technology
5. [wo]man vs. the supernatural
6. [wo]man vs. self
7. [wo]man vs. god/religion

There are still thousands of great stories waiting for me to watch! I also like to think that its not just a character that makes a story, but the story itself. Would LoM had been as effective set in today's society? I think not.

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That's my point. Characters make the situation, they dictate the setting; or the setting dictates the character. And that's before we consider the Zeitgeist. They and the viewer are products of their environment and that's what makes the plot seem fresh. I'm just saying that how either series ended doesn't matter; how they got there does and why we care they got there at all does.

I've seen that list before and find it frustrating because it's correct and naive at the same time! Kind of, well duh.

But anyway, what I mean is what you said: "Would LoM had been as effective set in today's society? I think not."

No, I didn't see much of Lost, but you seem to be about the only Lost fan who seems comfortable with what the island is, where it is and how it works. I have heard those references before, but what most people seem unhappy about is that it's all fluff. It's like the Bermuda triangle? Ok. Why? It's all mythologicalist and stuff! Ok. Why?

I'm thinking about that video that got posted the other day, where they edit together loads of plot points that seem to have drifted away. Maybe they are all tied in, but I prefer stories in which the ending is like a Master Key that unlocks everything you saw before. Can you really do that with Lost? I'm not even sure you can do it with AtA, but I think it hits the mark a lost closer. It also did it in half the time and a fraction of the hype!

By the way anyone reading, we're currently talking very spoilerific stuff about both Lost and Ashes To Ashes. We're not talking about anyone, honest!

[snowcat]

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I know alot of people who are happy with the idea that the Lost island is a mythological entity in that it can't be explained conventionally, Ive seen those videos of "unanswered Question" but alot of those questions were answered if you watched hard enough.

I to agree that I love an ending that opens up a story like a key, but i have to admit I admire the secretive endings of these series more, why? because they will forever be criticised/loved and speculated over.

I hate that list of plot points, I like to think you can break that mould its just finding a way around it, Id love to see a story come along that breaks it!

Sometimes you don't always have to ask why to understand something so Why is the Lost Island mythological? who cares, its a myth ;p
 

[hal9g]

I have the first season of AtA on DVD and will watch it in the mid-summer season...

Must be R2.  Can't find a R1 version.  That's OK.  I'll wait for it to be available on BD.

[Alien Redrum]

Have you seen Life On Mars before? Well, in any case, as I've said before, the differences in the first season of AtA can be jarring.

I haven't read any of the spoilers in the thread (totally staying away from anything Lost related), but, man, this is spot on.

A friend turned me on to Life on Mars (the UK version) and I enjoyed it immensely. Hunt is one of my favorite characters of all time and he was primarily the reason I enjoyed it so much.

When Ashes to Ashes came, I watched maybe the first season. I just couldn't get into it. It was as if there was no synergy.

I very well have to give it a second go and suffer through the first season again. Of course this means I have to watch Life on Mars all over again to prepare, but I certainly have no problem with that.  

Oh, and the US remake of Life on Mars can suck it. What an abortion that was compared to the original.

[Najemikon]

Definitely worth a second chance. Series 2 had something more special.