Topic: 2011 election disaster

[KinkyCyborg]

Four elections in the past 7 years is a ridiculous waste of taxpayer money.

Something that wouldn't happen if Harper would have been able to cooperate with the 3 others parties.

There is no requirement for the party in power and those who are not to cooperate. That's why they are called the 'opposition'. Political parties often have polar opposite ideologies so to expect them to play nice is pure fantasy. The non confidence vote is nothing more than a tool for the opposition party to topple the government over an issue like the budget because they believe they may succeed in a quick election. This of course was the downfall of Ignatieff (who couldn't even win his own riding) and the entire Liberal party. Some are bemoaning the majority government but bear in mind the Conservatives never called for this election... careful what you wish for.

Personally for me since the Tories have been in power I have seen a reduction of 2% of the GST, and our country recovered from the global recession better than just about any other country on the planet. For that they have bought at least another 4 years of my support.

As far as the Bloc goes, I don't want this to turn into a French Vs. English argument because I have nothing but respect for the people of Quebec, however the Bloc's attempt to protect Quebec's interests also included their support of independence from the rest of Canada during a 1995 referendum which failed as it turns out the people of Quebec did not have the same appetite for sovereignty as the BQ party did. I also don't feel Meech Lake was a slap in the face of Quebec. It failed because of Quebec's insistence to be considered a 'distinct' society which by all means they are, but so are the fine people of Newfoundland and the other maritime provinces, as are the mostly indigenous population of Nunavut and the Northwest Territories and and so on throughout the country. Meech lake would have granted Quebec 'special' status which did not sit well with the rest of the nation and that is why it failed.

I just feel the principles of the BQ are not representative of the views of the majority of the Quebec population and this election confirmed it. While all political parties are self serving, including our new majority Tories, they at least view all provinces and territories as equals.

It is far too easy to get carried away in political debates so I will end my commentary now.  

KC

[Eric]

I didn't want to get involved in this discussion because I have a good idea how it's gonna end but there's one thing I'd like to reply to.

KC, I do agree that Canada did better than most countries in the recession but I don't really think our government has anything to do with that.  I believe it was easier to recover simply because our bank system is better, safer and prevented us from getting as deep in sh.. as other countries.

I don't know much about world economy and maybe the government made some decisions that helped, I certainly won't deny it's possible but I'm tired of politicians, any of them, taking all the credit for something in which they only played a small role.


Jimmy, I think you know my favorite "option" is the same as yours, and like you said, I believe it's something that will be have to be done here.  I don't believe that Bloc Québécois has won the majority of seats in Quebec in the last 20 years mainly because of the separatists (sovereignists or whatever else people want to call us, to me it's all the same) because if it was the case then we would have won a referendum.  In all objectivity, we have to accept that many people voted for them although they don't want separation.  Why ? Because it was their only option, NPD didn't look like a serious option, the conservatives don't really share our values and we're also prejudiced about them because of the reform party, and people were just tired of the Liberals.

But today it's different, people still don't want to vote for the conservatives or the Liberals but the NDP does look more appealing than before while it's becoming obvious that there's no point in having Bloc Québécois in Ottawa if we're not ready to have another referendum and win it.  I don't think we should blame people for the orange wave, change his good sometimes.

I do not like the conservatives any more than you.  I hate that they only care about economy, have no concern for science and environment.  I also dislike the way they control information because they're afraid of answering questions.  But at the same time, I think it's a good thing because I've always believed that Stephen Harper is the best asset of the separatists, the longer he's in power and does things the way he wants, the more people will get fed up with and maybe they'll vote Yes on the next referendum.

In my opinion, if one thing has been proved with the last 7 elections and the result of the last one is that Canada just doesn't work the way it is, there's always gonna be a cleavage between the west and the east with the center sorta caught on its own while the Atlantic is trying to survive in a Canada that doesn't give a damn about them more than it does about us.

We've been lazy since 1995, in a way we had the possibility to vote for sovereignty without actually doing it and we sorta of let things go to sleep.  Maybe it's time we shake ourselves.

[Jimmy]

I just feel the principles of the BQ are not representative of the views of the majority of the Quebec population and this election confirmed it.

Funny how today most people who vote for the NPD monday here made it very clear that it wasn't a vote against the Québec sovereignty but a protestation vote against old politician (anyway, for us French Canadians the Bloc Québécois doesn't equal what you think it means in the rest of Canada. But I can understand the wrong perception due to the propaganda campaign in the ango-canadian medias) ... Of course, watching french television help when come the time to get straight facts on the subject...

There is no requirement for the party in power and those who are not to cooperate. That's why they are called the 'opposition'.

You forget one fact in your phrase : the oposition was in fact the majority. If the minority government don't want to cooperate it isn't a surprise if he is overturned...

The non confidence vote is nothing more than a tool for the opposition party to topple the government over an issue like the budget

As I said the motion wasn't about the budget. It was because the government lied to the House of Commons wich is certainly not a trivial issue in politics and democraty.

This of course was the downfall of Ignatieff (who couldn't even win his own riding) and the entire Liberal party.

Wich is due to the shameful smear campaign done by the Reform Party, something disgusting, disgraceful and never seen in our country politics. A total lack of class that we don't even see here in municipal politic, anyone backing this way of doing politics must be ashamed of themselves. This is the US way of doing politic and, as much I respect them, this contemptible way of doing politic as nothing to do here.
 

Personally for me since the Tories have been in power I have seen a reduction of 2% of the GST, and our country recovered from the global recession better than just about any other country on the planet.

Are you serious? really? a taxes reduction of 2% is enough for you to vote for a party... WOW! God I "like" the me, me, me attitude. We have lost all our international credibility with him in power but it's nothing the GST decreased by 2%, we are involved in two wars that doesn't concern us but it's nothing the GST decreased by 2%, they spent million of dollars for two days but it's nothing the GST decreased by 2%, we will spend billion of dollars for uneeded fighting planes but it's nothing the GST decreased by 2%, a lot of collaborators of the Harper government are caught in scandal but it's nothing the GST decreased by 2%, the oil industry get billion of dollar in subvention it doesn't need but it's nothing the GST decreased by 2%, company taxes decrease at a ridicule level while those of the population increase but it's nothing the GST decreased by 2%, the religious right dictate the government agenda but it's nothing the GST decreased by 2%, ... Pathethic

BTW the only reason why we weren't hit as strongly by the recession is because our banking system is regulated more strictly than everywhere in the world. Steven Harper and the Conservative party had nothing to do with this

[Jimmy]

I didn't want to get involved in this discussion because I have a good idea how it's gonna end

It's a friend discussion, I sure don't expect it to turn badly. I just feel sad for the Anglo-Canadian because they never get the straight facts on this issue because of their medias that like to push the "scary separatist will come to drink your blood" button.

I don't believe that Bloc Québécois has won the majority of seats in Quebec in the last 20 years mainly because of the separatists (sovereignists or whatever else people want to call us, to me it's all the same) because if it was the case then we would have won a referendum.

This is why I say the raison d'être of the Bloc Québécois is the defense of the French Canadian interest in the ROC and not the Quebec sovereignty.

I think it's a good thing because I've always believed that Stephen Harper is the best asset of the separatists, the longer he's in power and does things the way he wants, the more people will get fed up with and maybe they'll vote Yes on the next referendum.

This is exactly what I thing too

We've been lazy since 1995, in a way we had the possibility to vote for sovereignty without actually doing it and we sorta of let things go to sleep.  Maybe it's time we shake ourselves.

The way I see it is that many of us were demoralized by the way the federal had cheated and broken laws to win something that isn't their bussiness (even with that we almost won). Myself I was completly disgusted by anything politics related for two years after that... In twenty years at most it will be done (unless the ROC send the army here again to scare the population) and finally this country where we were always treated as second class citizen won't exist anymore. Quite sad when we think that if the Canada exist it's because of us the French Canadians...

[Eric]

@Jimmy: One thing about the medias. Keep in mind that our medias will only report about the press in the ROC when it's bad about us.  They never report on anything else about Canada so although the bad stuff is bad, there may not be as much of it as we feel.  Just because it's all we hear about doesn't mean there is that much of it.

@Jimmy & KC: I'm not so sure Ignatieff and his campaing should bear all the blame for their defeat.  I think the Liberals as a whole have to take a big part of the responsability.  Most of the people who became prime ministers of Canada had a political career before.  Jean Chretien had been there forever before becoming leader of the Liberals and then Premier.  Stephen Harper has been in politics for a long time too.

I think the Liberals expected Ignatieff to be their savier and that was a stupid mistake.  You can't take a guy nobody has ever heard of and say "Hey, here's the guy, you don't know him but it's ok, choose him as your leader for four years anyway".  It doesn't work that way.  Becoming Premier of any country is something you earn over years, not in 35 days.

Despite everything that has happened in recent years in Canada the Liberals believed that they deserved to be in power, that it was due to them and that not being there was only episodic and that it would come back because they believed it was natural.

They took the worst beating in their history not because of one person, they did because they took things for granted, they took it easy and they didn't work hard enough.

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I don't believe that Bloc Québécois has won the majority of seats in Quebec in the last 20 years mainly because of the separatists (sovereignists or whatever else people want to call us, to me it's all the same) because if it was the case then we would have won a referendum.

This is why I say the raison d'être of the Bloc Québécois is the defense of the French Canadian interest in the ROC and not the Quebec sovereignty.

... and as long as there are people that feel more as French or British than as Canadian this will never stop.
Take a look at Switzerland: Three cultures, one country and they all feel as Swiss. Mainly because none of them found it useful to breed an inferiority complex.

[Eric]

Mainly because none of them found it useful to breed an inferiority complex.

Is that how we're perceived in the rest of the world ?  People who want to separate because of an inferiority complex ?

[Jimmy]

... and as long as there are people that feel more as French or British than as Canadian this will never stop.
Take a look at Switzerland: Three cultures, one country and they all feel as Swiss. Mainly because none of them found it useful to breed an inferiority complex.

It isn't an inferiority complex at all... The Canada is an artificial construction where the two founding nations were recognized as equals with the same rights and protections. With the passing of the time one of them was outcast (the one who is responsible for the birth of this country) with the help of an alien Court System (by exemple when the federal stole us the Labrador and give it to the Newfoundlands as a gift for becoming part of the country) or the numerous interference of the federal government in the provincial fields of competence. Do I need to write here that we are not even a part of the new Constitution written in 1981?

Switzerland, Belgium or Great Britain are exemple that work because the different nations making them are treated equally. You don't have less rights in Switzerland depending of if you are of French, German or Italian culture... 

[KinkyCyborg]

Are you serious? really? a taxes reduction of 2% is enough for you to vote for a party... WOW! God I "like" the me, me, me attitude.  ... Pathethic

Does not the 'me me me attitude' not perfectly describe the Bloc? And since when is it a crime to base ones vote on the issues that are important to the voter? The relationship between politicians and voters has always very much been based on 'What have you done for me lately?' and if you ask the average citizen who does not make a huge emotional investment in politics you will find that is exactly how they base their decision. Things have been good for me and my family during the Tories time in office to date and so I'm willing to stick with the status quo until they somehow give me reason to change my mind or another party gives me a compelling reason to switch. And yet you ridicule my choice and reasons and call me pathetic because they don't happen to coincide with your own opinions. Personally I don't feel the need to resort to that as I can respect all peoples choices in politics, religion or otherwise even if I don't happen to agree with them. Given your declared disgust for 'smear tactics' and general 'dirty politicking' your vehemence towards me leads me to believe you'd be quite good at it... and that I don't respect.

If Quebec should ever gain their independence from Canada I shall declare that I believe they will be making a mistake but I shall wish them luck and they can take a proportionate share of Canada's deficit with them. 

With that, I shall return to the much more serene activity of posting movie reviews.

KC

[Jimmy]

Kevin you read me wrong : I didn't wrote that you are pathetic (it's not my style at all), but that voting base on a 2% lowering of the GST compare to the negative things I've listed (and I could have listed a lot more) is pathetic. Take it any way you want but there is more than "what you have done for me" in politics, here we vote on government results not on little candy gift who aren't anyway since the 2% they gave was retaken somewhere else. So you have won nothing with this overall.

If Quebec should ever gain their independence from Canada I shall declare that I believe they will be making a mistake but I shall wish them luck and they can take a proportionate share of Canada's deficit with them. 

Of course we will... as we will take our share of the diverse canadian actif we have paid for.

[Eric]

... and they can take a proportionate share of Canada's deficit with them.  

That wouldn't be the first time KC, we did take half of the debt when we were joined

I have the feeling this discussion is turning into a Quebec vs Canada and I don't know if it's good or not but getting back to the original subject, which is the election of a conservative governement, tell me KC, don't you have a problem with the way Harper has tried to control the information ?  Do you agree with him in forbidding government workers to show up on commitees when they're cited ?

Do you think it's acceptable to force decisions on independant organizations and have the directors fired if they don't obey ?  Is it ok for a government to order that any printed document should now say "Harper Government" instead "Government of Canada" ?

Do you find it acceptable to withdraw the public funding of political parties ?  To save 26 millions a year ?  That's a ridiculous amount in Canada's budget and it has nothing to do with saving money, it's all about destroying the other parties.  It this right ?  Is it OK that a party uses the advantages of being in power to do things only to kill his opposition with no regards for democracy ?  

Do you like that your country went from being one of the most respected to one the rest of the worlds almost laughs at ?

Should I say anything about culture ?  Communications ?  What's the point of having an independant organization like the CRTC if the government can void their decisions when it doesn't like it ?  Wasn't avoiding that the whole point or making these organizations independant in the first place ?

Do you really want a government who's gonna spend your money and refuse to answer when asked how much and where ?

[KinkyCyborg]

... and they can take a proportionate share of Canada's deficit with them. 

That wouldn't be the first time KC, we did take half of the debt when we were joined

I have the feeling this discussion is turning into a Quebec vs Canada and I don't know if it's good or not but getting back to the original subject, which is the election of a conservative governement, tell me KC, don't you have a problem with the way Harper has tried to control the information ?  Do you agree with him in forbidding government workers to show up on commitees when they're cited ?

Do you think it's acceptable to force decisions on independant organizations and have the directors fired if they don't obey ?  Is it ok for a government to order that any printed document should now say "Harper Government" instead "Government of Canada" ?

Do you find it acceptable to withdraw the public funding of political parties ?  To save 26 millions a year ?  That's a ridiculous amount in Canada's budget and it has nothing to do with saving money, it's all about destroying the other parties.  It this right ?  Is it OK that a party uses the advantages of being in power to do things only to kill his opposition with no regards for democracy ? 

Do you like that your country went from being one of the most respected to one the rest of the worlds almost laughs at ?

Should I say anything about culture ?  Communications ?  What's the point of having an independant organization like the CRTC if the government can void their decisions when it doesn't like it ?  Wasn't avoiding that the whole point or making these organizations independant in the first place ?

Do you really want a government who's gonna spend your money and refuse to answer when asked how much and where ?

All that and they still got elected with 40% of the popular vote!  You can look back on every ruling government in Canada for the past 40 years of all political flavors and create an itemized list just as you have of scandals, back room dealings, misappropriation of tax payer money, creative accounting and the just general bending of the truth. That's just government and it's a reality. The voters choice is often picking the lesser of evils and the NDP as your new opposition party is proof of that. I'll be sure to come back with my own list of nefarious conduct in the future if and when your party is voted in. 

KC

[Jimmy]

In place of this why you don't give us a list of the good things they did? I believe it won't be a long one... and the recession thingy doesn't count as they aren't the one who put the bank industry regulations system in place.

[Eric]

KC, they won the election with 40% of the vote because we have a crappy electoral system.  It is illogical that one wins a majority government with a minority of votes.  Regardless of anything else, this should be changed for Canada, all the provinces and all municipalities.

I won't deny that every other government before has done bad stuff but most of the times that's why they were kicked out down the line but that's a different issue IMO.  I see a difference between kicking a government out because they've done bad stuff and voting for them knowing in advance they're gonna do it.

I didn't write my previous post as a list of stuff to pick on Harper, they were questions I was asking you.  You voted for them and you're defending them now so I'm asking again, do you agree with that way of governing ?

[KinkyCyborg]

In place of this why you don't give us a list of the good things they did? I believe it won't be a long one... and the recession thingy doesn't count as they aren't the one who put the bank industry regulations system in place.

The bad will always be viewed as outweighing the good. The opposition parties and the various, biased media outlets will always ensure that. I already gave a sampling of my positives and was called pathetic for my troubles so I'll steer clear of that pitfall this time around and we'll just agree to disagree.