Topic: Wikileaks

[Critter]

[Blair]

I first misread that as: "Wikileaks' Colgate"    (Does a toothpaste company really have that many secrets?)

[NickCalder15]

Oh what he is doing is very, very noble- in theory. Fighting for government transparency? Giving the finger to one of the most powerful (and blatantly hypocritical) governments in the world? All very well done, in theory.

In practice, he's doing good for me. Yes he possibly endangered lives in July and October (the next time someone mentions the 2-thousand-published diplomatic cables in the same danger zone as them, I will virtually punch you in the face  ), yes he does have a rape-charge-of-sorts on him. But

He is exposing hundreds-to-the-thousands of US crimes across Iraq and Afghanistan. He is exposing backroom dealings between countries that completely contradict public statements. And he is also proving one more thing in the reactions: The moronic nature of US politicians. Seriously them saying he has blood on his hands (Sarah Palin) or a high-tech terrorist (Joe Liden, or whoever the old guy's name is) not only indicates their gross tendency to sensationalize stories, but also their complete inability to get over it.

A Pentagon investigation concluded months ago not one soul had died as a result of the Iraq and Afghanistan war documents release. But guess what did happen? We discovered that a US army helicopter shot civilians on very, very, very weak circumstantial evidence (Fox News needs to get their shit straight when they report this btw). It exposed how US soldiers willingly handed over prisoners they knew were going to be tortured. It exposed a hit squad who murdered civilians in Afghanistan. Yes we all suspected that. But now we have solid proof all of that happened. And the US has not done one little thing to deny it. Rather they've decided to demonize Assange as if he is the Anti-Christ. Their soldiers have done a lot worse. And let's get one more thing straight, everyone: Assange is wanted for QUESTIONING. He hasn't been charged. Thus it is theoretically illegal to keep him under house arrest. He's guilty of leaving a country. Until they charge him, they have no reason to keep him under arrest. So anyone who tries to call him a rapist needs to learn the cold hard fact that you are innocent until proven guilty.

But. Assange is very naive in his transparency views. Most of it I agree with. All diplomatic cables, and all war documents after the fact should be released. We live in a democratic society, not North Korea. But. We should not be releasing documents on current operations, troop tactics and strategies. None of that. But anything after the fact? Go for it. Just don't demonize the messager when

A- Your country was the one that let 2.5 million people access the documents in the first place
B- Your country was the one who allowed these disgusting crimes to happen in the first place. Assange is merely exposing what we should have known years ago.

[NickCalder15]

Since I have studied in politics and I was also highly involved in student politic (I was for 3 years on the central comity of my university student association and President of my departement for 2 years) those revelations aren't surprising. It's the way it works, a lot of back stabbing and bad mouthing...

But there is a difference between knowing the practice and telling what is said... This guy is an irresponsable (without mentionning a rapist also, since he is within the scope of an international arrest warrant for this) and deserve to be arrested for treason and jailed for threatening state security and spying. Did he really think that nothing will happen because of this in some countries? Some countries doesn't need a lot of provocations to act...

Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy. Just wow.

I'm gonna counter act each of your claims individually. Get ready.

(without mentionning a rapist also, since he is within the scope of an international arrest warrant for this)

No no no. He left Sweden and is wanted for questioning. All he's got on him is allegations. Unless you want to invalidate dozens of laws that have existed for decades, Assange isn't guilty of anything. Innocent until proven guilty. He hasn't been charged with anything at all. Until he is charged, he is innocent. He is SUSPECTED of those crimes. But he isn't charged with them. You don't need to be a lawyer to figure that out.

nd deserve to be arrested for treason and jailed for threatening state security and spying

 
Let me tell you something right now, Jimmy.

Julian Assange of Australia is not a US citizen. He is releasing US documents. Therefore he is not guilty of treason. You have to be a US citizen to be charged with treason in this matter, buddy. Would I be able to charge you with treason if you released Australian documents? No. I would not.

Secondly, he is no more guilty of "threatening state security" and "spying" as a New York Times, Guardian or Der Spiel journalist. The New York Times has in fact published much more sensitive material than wikileaks ever has. Are you gonna call on their arrest too? What about The Guardian? They are actively helping wikileaks assess each of the documents to minimize damage while also still keeping the material intact. Are you going to arrest them too?

[NickCalder15]

As he wasn't in enough trouble already... Does he realizes where is the real power in the world? He is better to find a hole to hide really fast and a lawsuit from a bank is probably the least menacing consequences he will encounters...

15 minutes of fame research as its more disgusting... I won't be surprise to learn he will be kill in less than a year, sound harsh but sometimes we must pay for what we do.

Are you saying we should all lie down and hide from the "real power"?

Furthermore, you appear to be actively welcoming his death, unless I read you incorrectly. Or at least all I saw was indifference. And either way, it is completely wrong what you just said. "Sometimes we must pay for what we do" Umm.....

The death penalty is reserved for the most extreme of criminals (murderers, very extreme sex offenders, very violent drug dealers etc). Are you equating the release of 250 thousand documents, 400 thousand Iraq War documents, and 90 thousand Afghanistan documents to that of a murder?

He does not deserve to be killed anymore than a regular journalist does. Like I said before, the NYT has published much more sensitive data. And nobody has called for his death. I'm seeing a bit of a double-standard if you welcome his death, but not that of regular journalists.

[NickCalder15]

It does seem like he's put a huge target on himself.
Not everything is a cover up...and not all information needs to be made public.

That is true. Some data needs to be kept secret. But not all of it. Most of it in fact deserves to be in the public domain. When superpowers like the US get to operate in secret, it fosters human rights abuses, corruption etc. And all of that is exactly the opposite of what the US stands for. Sweden is practically the incarnate of what wikileaks is striving for. Now: Compare the corruption and human rights abuses of Sweden to that of the United States. That's right. There is no comparison. The US' reliance on overwhelming secrecy has created gross illegal acts a thousand times over. And what happens when it is exposed? The messenger gets targeted, while the real criminals (read: The US military) get to go back to work and have a beer.

[Najemikon]

Like I said before, the NYT has published much more sensitive data. And nobody has called for his death. I'm seeing a bit of a double-standard if you welcome his death, but not that of regular journalists.

Well, I'd rather trust a journalist with years of experience and shrewd investigation skills over an idiot like Assange who is just releasing what he can for the sake of releasing it. A journalist gets hold of such documents and follows them up to put them in context. Some of the stuff this pratt has been releasing is so mundane, yet very damaging. He clearly has no respect for the diplomatic process politics relies on.

By the way, welcome to the forum!   Don't come charging in quite so up front with multiple posts though. Makes it tough to follow. And respect Jimmy. He's been here a long time.

[Jimmy]

And respect Jimmy. He's been here a long time.

Thanks Jon
and I won't reply to the post since it isn't a political forum

[Critter]

And respect Jimmy. He's been here a long time.

Thanks Jon
and I won't reply to the post since it isn't a political forum

Not a political one, but it is a 'general' one and if I'm not wrong the topic of general can include politics. Also, you already did post in this thread about politics so why is it suddenly not right to do it now since it's "not a political forum" when you did it last week?

[Najemikon]

And respect Jimmy. He's been here a long time.

Thanks Jon
and I won't reply to the post since it isn't a political forum

Not a political one, but it is a 'general' one and if I'm not wrong the topic of general can include politics. Also, you already did post in this thread about politics so why is it suddenly not right to do it now since it's "not a political forum" when you did it last week?

Jimmy was doing drive-by posting. He made his point, then left. No need to argue it, because he "knows" he is "right". That's the heart of a good discussion otherwise it becomes an arse-kicking contest. Others may disagree, so you make your points and also leave it at that.

[NickCalder15]

Like I said before, the NYT has published much more sensitive data. And nobody has called for his death. I'm seeing a bit of a double-standard if you welcome his death, but not that of regular journalists.

 Well, I'd rather trust a journalist with years of experience and shrewd investigation skills over an idiot like Assange who is just releasing what he can for the sake of releasing it. A journalist gets hold of such documents and follows them up to put them in context. Some of the stuff this pratt has been releasing is so mundane, yet very damaging. He clearly has no respect for the diplomatic process politics relies on.

By the way, welcome to the forum!   Don't come charging in quite so up front with multiple posts though. Makes it tough to follow. And respect Jimmy. He's been here a long time.

But he's essentially doing the same thing as journalists. Sure it's.....less professional than actual journalism. But that's all part of the plan actually. You see Assange once wrote an essay on a type of journalism- scientific journalism. It's where you publish the original source of the journalism alongside the actual article/news piece itself. Assange is essentially doing that through the Guardian, Der Spiel and the New York Times (along with The Age in Australia and whatever other newspaper I've forgotten).

Yes he is dumping very mundane stuff. But most of it is very trivial, sure it's embarrassing but I'm sure most of the diplomats actually suspected this is what they were writing about each other. And this eventually comes back to a focal point: It doesn't need to be kept secret like The Manhattan Project (okay a bit of an exaggeration, but you get the point). It's done nothing more but embarrass the US. Hilary Clinton has been french-kissing the other countries for weeks now in crisis mode, so most of it is all good. But it in no way justifies this travesty of a reaction. Calling for his execution? Threatening his son? Accusing him of treason? None of it is justified, especially the treason part. Christ the treason statement is so blatantly ignorant.

We live in a democratic society. We as a society have a right to know what the government is doing. The government serves the people, not the other way round. So Assange is basically getting revenge on the US for hiding from their citizens what they were supposed to know in the first place. He comes off as a bit of wanker I know. But he has got the right idea. It's alarming to me people saying that all of that should be kept secret. Why? It's not like it's details on Area 51 (although....I wonder how much of that he has, eh?   ). It's just political gossip, and details on a war that the US public should have been privy to at all times.

Thanks on the tip though. I got a bit carried away with the posts I was reading. I'd hate to say it but Jimmy is the incarnate of the attitude I despise. I like getting along with most people I meet. But. His attitude disgusts me. Sad to say.

[Jimmy]

Did you read all my post? Usually it's a good idea to take the time to read before attacking a long time user who has contributed a lot more than you did in the 2 hours 10 minutes you were here.

[NickCalder15]

Did you read all my post? Usually it's a good idea to take the time to read before attacking a long time user who has contributed a lot more than you did in the 2 hours 10 minutes you were here.

I read it all. I dissected it well actually.

You were calling for Assange's execution (or were accepting of it). You were calling him treasonous. You were calling him a threat to national security (bloggers can do more damage) etc. I responded accordingly. Sure you may have been here for a lot longer than me. But that doesn't mean the newbie can't have equal or more advanced knowledge on the subject and actually possesses a wish to debate with his fellow users over it.

[Jimmy]

Frankly my dear, I'm 40 years old, I have studied in politics, I was the President of the political departement of my university and I was 3 years a member of the Central Committee of my university do you really think I will waste my time to debate with an ideaslistic 14 years old who doesn't know what the real life is?

[Najemikon]

We live in a democratic society. We as a society have a right to know what the government is doing. The government serves the people, not the other way round. So Assange is basically getting revenge on the US for hiding from their citizens what they were supposed to know in the first place. He comes off as a bit of wanker I know. But he has got the right idea. It's alarming to me people saying that all of that should be kept secret. Why? It's not like it's details on Area 51 (although....I wonder how much of that he has, eh?   ). It's just political gossip, and details on a war that the US public should have been privy to at all times.

Ah, but we shouldn't be privvy to everything for our own good. People have this perverted view of free-speech.

A recent Wikileak was a discussion between US diplomats about British troops in Afghanistan. He basically called them cowards and useless. Now I'm biased, of course, but the British army is the best and most efficient in the world, but whatever you think, having some old fart shooting his mouth off is not good for the world to hear. And normally they wouldn't have had any idea of this example. As it was, our media leapt on it, soldiers were suddenly forced to defend themselves in interviews and taken any further, it could have damaged the relationship between the US and UK which is very powerful. And for what? You're absolutely right, it was just gossip and that's why it should have stayed buried.

This is why diplomacy is so important. Yes, on occasion it is used to cover something up (allegedly), but the alternative is a breakdown of the political system. Assange might as well be a bloody terrorist.

Just think about an office situation. A manager goes to see the director and says, "I think Bill in Accounts is a f***ing wanker and I want to string him up by his balls for what's he's done". Meanwhile, Bill is mouthing off to a colleague about his Manager, "who is a prick and if they piss me off one more time, I'm walking out!".

Now the Director, diplomatically arranges a meeting, where Bill and his Manager are very polite to one another. Bill eventually apologises for an error, but points out a problem with the system that allowed him to do it. His Manager accepts this and arranges a review of the system. Everything is fine.

Efficient, but dishonest, because they hate each other guts at that moment. Assange meanwhile would storm into the meeting and show each of them proof of what the other thinks about them.

Result? Anarchy and the business fails for the sake of crap said in the moment by employees who when asked to support their comments, would likely retract them anyway.

We don't need to know what politicians say behind closed doors most of the time. The stuff that has been covered up is another matter, but Assange is releasing everything. He's a prick and the site needs taking down.