Topic: Band of brothers

[Antares]

That's kinda harsh even to me who doesn't like Hitchcock very much, but at least respects him.

Well, it certainly wasn't intended to be harsh! Spielberg is kind of "heir apparent" to the sort of cinema Hitchcock produced. In fact I think that very phrase was used when Jaws was released (just compare it with The Birds). I see a lot of Hitch in Spielberg's compositions and themes, occasionally filtered through David Lean. Spielberg has the same basic approach as Hitch in simply considering the audience as part of the film.

I see him as a worthy successor to Hitchcock, but also a very individual talent. So there. 

You do Hitchcock a great disservice by mentioning him in the same breath with Spielberg, although I do see your point about the audience being part of the film.

But you're dreaming when you compare him to Lean...that's just plain wrong. 

Second word is "off".

 

 

[Najemikon]

I didn't compare him to Lean. It's just the influence is obvious and he has often cited Lawrence of Arabia as one of his favourite films.

And I did not do Hitchcock a disservice either! Spielberg is probably the most successful and influential director of the last four decades. His talent and genius (yes, genius!) require no defence. You may not like his films, but to deny his valuable contribution to film as both entertainment and art is short-sighted.

I worry this discussion is heading for Tarantino-esque proportions, but that's not possible. Keep up this argument and Karsten will be able to take you to the Berlin zoo as a freaky exhibit to be frowned at and poked with a stick. 

[Antares]

Spielberg is probably the most successful and influential director of the last four decades.

He definitely is the most successful director of the last four decades, but that's because he's all style and no substance. He just gives the masses special effects laden dog and pony shows and he is quite good at that. As I've stated before, he's the modern day version of P.T. Barnum.

You may not like his films, but to deny his valuable contribution to film as both entertainment and art is short-sighted.

I'll give you the entertainment part, but art?? ?? ??

I'm sorry Jon, but I'm viewing his output with 20/20 vision, not with blinders on.

I would only consider his canon art, if Michelangelo painted either of these on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel...

(click to show/hide)

Do you consider this fine art? They are two of the most popular and entertaining pieces of art in the last half century. 

Gotta love that velvet Elvis...his aura outshines Jesus. 

[Najemikon]

Oh, you are being silly! 

Straight from the top of my head, in order...

The last shot of Sugarland Express
The ending of Duel
"Why don't you come down here and shovel some of this shit?" or "Here's to swimmin' with bow-legged women" sequences in Jaws
The kid opening the front door in Close Encounters of the Third Kind... scrub that. Just press f***ing pause about every 2 minutes and frame it!
Chasing down the truck in Raiders of the Lost Ark
Elliot rides off a cliff in E.T., possibly the finest moment of modern fantasy cinema. Name something better since, I dare you. 
"Cadillac of the skies!" in Empire of the Sun... being an airplane nut as a kid, this is one of the formative moments of why I'm on this bloody forum everyday! That scene is like catnip for me.  



The triumphant roar of the T-Rex, following the escape down the skeleton in Jurassic Park

I just reached Schindler and I ain't starting that particular fire again! But you get the idea. Every one of those moments is cinema at its most potent and if they don't count as art, then film as a whole can't do either. We might as well burn the lot and call it a day. 

[Antares]

Those are iconic moments Jon. And while they are magical and I'll will give you artistic, I view film as art to mean the whole package of the film.

Ikiru, Yojimbo, Ran, Seven Samurai and Rashomon by Kurosawa.

The Lady Eve, Sullivan's Travels, The Miracle of Morgans Creek and Hail the Conquering Hero by Sturges.

North By Northwest, Strangers on a Train, Rebecca and Notorious by Hitchcock

The Red Shoes, Peeping Tom, The Life and Death of Colonel Blimp and Black Narcissus by Powell

Different styles, but all artists because their films as a whole are art, not just snippets.

[Najemikon]

What was that?  Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the arse-kicking contest!  I can post a list of truly great films too and some of mine were made after I was born... 

You do me a disservice too. I chose those moments because they are the pinnacle of films that brilliant as a whole. I cannot believe you think I'm saying "Look! He was Quite Good for 30 seconds!". 'Iconic moments' only work properly when the film builds to them gracefully. Close Encounters, Jaws and possibly E.T. deserve to be counted in any list of the greatest films ever made.

[Antares]

Close Encounters, Jaws and possibly E.T. deserve to be counted in any list of the greatest films ever made.

Out of those three, I'll give you Jaws, but that's it. E.T. is close, but CEotTK is the most overrated film of the 70's.

You do me a disservice too. I chose those moments because they are the pinnacle of films that brilliant as a whole. I cannot believe you think I'm saying "Look! He was Quite Good for 30 seconds!".

I would never demean your film knowledge and integrity, but then you should have made the thrust of your argument the three films you mentioned above.

[Achim]

Funny enough, Spielberg has me usually least interested when hew is trying the most. When he is "just doing it" he usually gets quite magical results. I enjoy film as an art form that has shivers running down my spine. What good is it when I can say that I just watched an really artful film and didn't really enjoy my time with it?

[hal9g]

Out of those three, I'll give you Jaws, but that's it. E.T. is close, but CEotTK is the most overrated film of the 70's.

Hmmmm....it's time for me to re-evaluate your ability to objectively evaluate films! 

CEoTK was not only one of the best movies of the'70s, it's one of the best ever!   

[Antares]

Hmmmm....it's time for me to re-evaluate your ability to objectively evaluate films! 

Why...because I don't like popcorn science fiction? 

CEoTK was not only one of the best movies of the'70s, it's one of the best ever!   

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, and you see beauty in that film, I see a bloated batch of special effects surrounding a weak screenplay.

I'll take this film over it any day...

Fire in the Sky, the aliens aren't cute in this one.

[Najemikon]

Well, I've read one heck of a lot of sci-fi. Close Encounters is superb. One of the finest proper examples of the genre. You know another very fine example? A.I. 

I would never demean your film knowledge and integrity, but then you should have made the thrust of your argument the three films you mentioned above.

You keep changing the goal-posts of this debate! Remember when it started, you made a broad statement about Spielberg, so I responded to demonstrate the breadth and consistency of his output. Not many directors can boast such quality. Certainly none of his contemporaries, like Coppola or even Scorcese.

Funny enough, Spielberg has me usually least interested when hew is trying the most. When he is "just doing it" he usually gets quite magical results. I enjoy film as an art form that has shivers running down my spine. What good is it when I can say that I just watched an really artful film and didn't really enjoy my time with it?

There are very few directors as naturally capable of just doing it, as you say. Of his lesser films, it's like the rhythms off. I don't think it's a case of him trying too hard, more like he's listening to an engine splutter and can't quite make it purr... just compare Jurassic Park with its sequel. There are some stunning sequences in The Lost World (momma T-Rex stomping around the city!), but the film just doesn't gel as a whole. There's one particular scene with Vince Vaughn that demonstrated that perfectly.