Topic: [SPOILER] Inception - Discussion

[Dragonfire]

While I remember that Cobb described the reasoning behind him not being the architect like that, I thought he also mentioned that the dream is populated by the dreamer's subconscious. They also described twice (once Cobb, once Arthur) how the population created by the dreamer can turn on "aliens" in the dream, just like they attacked Ariadne during her first session. maybe it's because Cobb has done this so much, that his subconscious is able to add population to other people's dream...?

Hmmmm indeed.  
I do remember it being mentioned how the dream is populated by the dreamer.  Or was it the target?  In the first level dream, the one guy is the dreamer for that level - the guy driving the van when everyone else goes into the second level..I can't remember his name now - but Fisher's projections show up and attack the group..which is how Saito gets shot.  So I think the dreams can be populated by anyone involved..and the architect is able to design things when they aren't the main dreamer.

No matter what dream level, you need a kick to wake up "early", which can be provided in the dream through death or falling from heights or a physical shock OR it can be provided outside the dream (bathtub drop). I believe this works for dream and dream-in-dream. However, since for the main job they needed three levels, they needed stringer drugs, which in turn would making it impossible to wake up to reality from any kick. It still works to use a kick from one level to the next.

Right...something needs to happen for them to wake up early.  Though if they are in a dream within a dream - normally without drugs - dying or the kick will just take them back up one level.  Though I think they don't do more than 2 dreams without the drugs.  For the job with Fisher, they were going into 3, which is why they needed the drugs if I remember right.

The limbo part now clearly needs another viewing from me. I thought only dying will do it, but you are right, the place where Fischer was (where they meet Mal), is obviously supposed to be limbo. Oh, yes, now I remember though. That level was limbo already and he had left shortly when the kick happened, which made him wake up in the truck just to drown shortly after.

So before, Mal and Cobb where in a level (maybe 3), where they grew old, died and therefore went to limbo? That brings me back to the question why they didn't wake up, as they didn't use drugs as strong.

All I remember Cobb saying about how they got to limbo - and he clearly says they were stuck in limbo for like 50 years and that is when they created all the buildings and everything - is that they had been exploring deeper into dreams.  I don't remember him saying anything about using drugs and then dying in a dream, or doing dreams within dreams.  I don't think there is enough explanation for how Cobb and Mal got to limbo to begin with.  But it seems like dying in limbo will take you back to reality - at least if not sedated.  Remember when Ariadne gets Fisher out, she feels the kick from level 3..and they had to follow all the kicks back up to get to level 1.  They were shown still in level 1 for a bit..so maybe they just hung out in that level until the sedatives wore off and the machine shut down on the plane.  I don't think they wanted to spend too much time in the deeper dream levels because it would bee too disorienting when they did wake up.    Hmmmm....which is making me wonder now about Cobb and Saito getting out of limbo.    Just thinking while I'm typing here, so this may not make sense.  Ariadne had to follow the kick to get out..and from then one, they all had to follow the kicks to get out of each other level.  Cobb and Saito didn't have a kick in limbo..they killed themselves there.  Or Saito shot Cobb and then himself.  Something like that since we're never shown for sure what happened.  No one else died..now wait.  Fisher was dead in level 3..but Eamse used the defibrillator on him, which acted like a kick to pull him back to 3..and then he could ride the other kick to 1.  They didn't try to revive Saito or Cobb, so that must be why they could go straight back to the plane.    Maybe.

Though now I wonder what would have happened if Cobb found Saito sooner in limbo and they killed themselves there before the sedatives wore off and the machine was off.    Would they have just gone back into limbo?  Gone up to level 1 until the drugs wore off and the machine was off?  Argh.  

Not sure why it confused you, it makes good sense to me.

It wasn't so much that it confused me..just that I thought up yet another possibility that is making me consider a bunch of other stuff too.  

Isn't the scene in the beginning cut that so that it appears to be part of the actual opening dream, where they try to retrieve Saito's secret as a test?

The bold part is what I meant. Without showing reality in between we move from the scene that is repeated at the end of the movie right into the dream that represents the test for Saito. So, upon first viewing we may think that t's all part of the same dream, only at the end do we realize where the split was.

Ahh..ok.  I think I misread or misunderstand what you were saying before.
To be honest, when the movie begins and Cobb is found on the beach and taken in to old Saito, I didn't know that was a dream. I was thinking it was ..well..like a flashback to show what Saito was talking about when he mentions having seen something like that before.  
I didn't think much else about that opening part, though I did wonder for a while why Saito was older and Cobb was younger.  Though by the end, I understood why and that they were in limbo.  At least I thought they were.

I think that's the key point. If the architect can imitate your totem he can make you believe you are in reality, which is to be avoided at all cost!

Oh I agree.  They don't want to get stuck in a dream, so they protect the totems.  Though I was thinking that Arthur saw Cobb's totem before.  Like after Cobb is talking on the phone to his kids..right before they try to leave and Saito has shown up with the first architect.  And I know Cobb spun the totem like right after the call ended.  I don't remember if it is shown falling...I think maybe it was.  I thought the totem was still out in the open when Arthur came in the room.  Though since Arthur wasn't the architect, maybe it was ok for him to see it and even see it fall.  Though I don't know that he saw it fall.  
Although, I swear, when Saito saw the totem in that first scene and talks about having seen it before, he says he knows how it works.  So how would he know?  Or maybe he just meant how a totem would work in general.  Since he insisted on going into the dreams, I would think he had to do some kind of training with them, so maybe he had a totem too and would know it is supposed to do something, though not specifically how Cobb's was supposed to work.    

So, yes, if only you know your totem, what it feels like and how it behaves, then you can make sure you're in reality. The point is the reverse, coming from the angle that it's not your dream! If it is not your dream, then your totem will be missing or it will feel/behave differently, hence you are in a dream. The totem is less important in a dream created by yourself. I think this is called a false positive or such? Having the totem be o.k. will not show you whether your dreaming or awake, as it might be your own dream. However, if the totem is not o.k., that's when it's telling you something.

I get that you can use the totem to make sure you don't get caught up in someone's dream.  Though, if Cobb's projection of Mal can pop up in the shared dreams, then why couldn't a totem do that too?  
I thought I remembered it being explained to Ariadne - I think by Arthur, though I can't remember for sure - that they used the totems to make sure they didn't get caught in a dream.  He didn't specify someone else's dream.  He just said a dream. So couldn't that mean also your own dream?  

Darn, Mark Kermode pointed it out in his review, but next time I watch I also must pay attention again in whose dream they are at what point.

Someone shared this illustration for who is dreaming.  I saved the url.  I'll find it again in a minute.    It have the levels and who is dreaming.  It does call level 1 reality.

Yes, I think that's what he meant. It was probably just a very efficient dialog piece.

True.  And it did seem to ..startle Miles a bit.  Like he didn't realize Cobb was having that sort of issue at all, or that he was still having it.

[Dragonfire]

Here's the illustrated thing. 
According to it there are 5 levels..including reality and limbo.

There is at least 1 link below the chart that goes to a page with more discussion and explanation.  I did read that before, so some of what I've mentioned reading somewhere may have come from there. 

An Illustrated Guide to the 5 Levels of Inception

[Achim]

  I missed Jon's post and Marie's response! I'll rectify that now. I won't repeat things Marie already commented, I'll simply state my agreement now.

First things first, 'scuse the French, but... this film is fucking awesome!  

Welcome to the club

You mentioned that it was strange he shared it. Demonstrating it is fine, but letting someone else touch it diffuses it. I'm wondering...

I think the ideal totem is a complete secret. If you show it to someone, it's already halfway compromised. Arthur explains that to Adriane, I think, when she shows him her chess piece.

b) What is the significance of Mal locking her totem away in their world?

I thought she did that as a way of blocking out the truth from herself that they were in a dream.  When Cobb is telling Adriane about what happened, he mentions how Mal had locked something away, deep inside.  It had already been set up in the movie that people would frequently have important stuff locked in a safe in a dream.
I am wondering something now because I can't remember for sure.  Was the totem really in the safe, or did Cobb put it there?  Was it actually shown laying in the safe before he started it spinning?

While it may be shown ambiguously on purpose, I seem to remember him saying that she locked it away for the reasons you said. At first he just knew there was a secret in the safe and then he was shocked to find her totem, as it became clear what her intentions were.

d) and while on the subject of totems, is there a clue to Adriane's choice of a chess piece?

I'm thinking it probably is a clue to something.  Like she is the chess master or something.  Arthur knows that Cobb is having issues with Mal showing up in the dreams, but he really doesn't push it too much.  Adriane does.  She keeps pushing Cobb to talk about Mal and what happened.  Then Adriane starts prodding him to confront her in a dream.  Adriane's actions in regard to those things does support the idea of an inception actually being done on Cobb, with Adriane being the one to plant the idea.  If that is the case, I could see Miles being behind it.  When they meet and Cobb talks about the job, Miles tells him to come back to reality.  I think Miles was concerned about Cobb and the issues he was having regarding Mal.  From what Cobb said, Miles taught him how to do the dream sharing stuff, so Miles could possible pull that off.

Hmmm, one could say Arthur's dice represents that he is more depending on luck where the day takes him, whereas Adriane's chess piece shows us that she is planning things meticulously? At the same time the latter is a possible hint to her being part of manipulating Cobb. doing an inception on him.

Miles could be the orchestrator behind it all, indeed. His motive being that he wants his grandchildren to have a father again, his means that he gets to provide the architect.

At this point, I think it's possible that Mal is indeed dead, that part of Cobb's story could be true, and that he only subsequently buried himself in a dreamworld.

Then there is also Adriane's name itself possibly being another clue.  I can't remember exactly now, but Adriane is the name of the goddess of the maze or something like that I think.  Or someone named Adriane led one of the gods out of a maze.  I need to look it up again.  The first time she and Cobb meet, he has her draw mazes as a test.  The levels of the dream are described as mazes at least once.  That could work with the theory that the inception is being done on Cobb as well.  Though if it was, I wonder was anything shown reality?  And if it was, why would Saito go along with the plan?  Hmmmm.  

A quick google could not reveal anything about a goddess, mazes or any such thing to me.

Cobb wanted a maze, so that if he should project Mal she would not find him too quickly.

Wasn't that what we discussed before, that Cobb is the dreamer, the whole time (meaning no reality was shown at all)? We just haven't conclusively proven it yet.

Mal is invading the dreams to persuade Cobb to leave: I don't think this is really Mal. I think it is a projection. He said himself to her at the end, "you are not my wife" and that's important. It's the theory of Uncanny Valley again! You know deep down when something isn't right and he knows this isn't Mal.

Plus he also said, you have no control over your sub-concious. I think that is very important. His sub-concious is manifesting the "seed of an idea" rattling around in Cobb's mind; the idea being Mal's inception that it is all a dream. The best way for that seed to grow naturally is have it represented by Mal screwing with his plans because that is the psychological idea of transferring guilt and sub-consciously you self-sabotage. You want something to happen, but you can't let it happen, so project the will to do that thing onto someone else. "Oh no! Look what Mal did! Ah, well... tut."

I think I'm leaning more to Mal being Cobb's projection as well.[/quote]
We all agree on this.

Now, I want to add my own idea into this mix... Saito. I'm wondering if there is more to him, though it may undermine the "it was all a dream!" ending...

No undermining going on really. It is merely a theory that we discuss whether it even is possible.

Is Saito manipulating Cobb from the beginning? Consider the first Architect, the one who gets the rug wrong. Saito is ruthless in leaving him to be dealt with and I was having a problem with the film seemingly setting up Saito as a bastard and then softening him into a team member. But the more I thought about it, the more I think he is playing a part to gain Cobb's trust, if you believe Saito is in Cobb's dream.

Interesting idea, but what would be the point? Him being the one orchestrating the inception on Mal? Why? There is two possible and very personal core points to this film:
a) Cobb's need to get back to his children.
b)someone trying to get Cobb to wake up.
These would go along with Nolan's honesty you mentioned. If Saito was such a key player here, none of his motivations could be that personal, could they?

I understood him being honest when he said he hadn't order the death of that first architect (everyone recognize him as the Amish kid from Witness...?), he merely had him handed over to "the company"; agreeably he mentioned they are very likely to kill him.

Very good question.  I have wondered a bit about Saito too.  That's true with the first architect..and with all the preparation and planning that they put into the jobs, it seems like that shouldn't have been missed.  And how Saito already knew so much about what was going on during both of those dreams.  Saito is very questionable and there isn't enough shared about him.  Though the same thing can be said for most of the characters.

Saito is trained to protect his subconscious. I think it is not much more than a plot point to set up the fact that Fischer is trained as well.

Consider that we didn't see the dream set-up on the train. To paraphrase the film, "can he remember how he got there?". Could the team -including Saito- have ambushed Cobb, rather than the other way around?

Very good point.  We have no idea how they got there, so it does raise the question..does Cobb know?  Very interesting idea.  
So...if we go with that theory, why do you think the team ambushed Cobb?  Do get him to let go of the guilt associated with Mal's death?  To get him out of a dream he's stuck in?  Some other reason?

Maybe they ambushed him to have him fail, so that the following setup to do the inception on Fischer would seem more challenging?

Is Cobb dreaming the whole thing or is he part of someone elses from the start? Mal or Saito, maybe...Remember the idea that you train your sub-concious to fight for you and it manifests the thugs? Were the gunmen in Mogadishu really from that company, or... I'll leave it there!

[...]

Ohhh..that reminds me.  One thing I read the other night suggested that when Cobb is running through Mogadishu that he is in a dream then.  The person who made that suggestion pointed out how so many thugs are chasing him and also how that alley or whatever gets so narrow and he seems stuck, but then he just gets out just in time.

I had the same idea about the guys in Mogadishu earlier today, weighing the different ideas we discussed so far. I mean sure, he is a suspected murderer, but would the FBI/CIA really send such a strong army after him who shoots around like that with risking the life of innocent bystanders? It made more sense to me suddenly that they were indeed his own projections.

[Dragonfire]

I missed Jon's post and Marie's response! I'll rectify that now. I won't repeat things Marie already commented, I'll simply state my agreement now.

I think it is easy for us to miss stuff here with how much we are talking about this one.

I think the ideal totem is a complete secret. If you show it to someone, it's already halfway compromised. Arthur explains that to Adriane, I think, when she shows him her chess piece.

I think I agree with that..they try to keep it completely secret.  Though Ariadne - I think I spelled her name wrong before..oops.  Anyway, Ariadne didn't show Arthur her chess piece.  He showed her his die and wouldn't let her touch it.  After she made the chess piece and was doing something to it so it would fall over, she saw Cobb.  She had it in her hand and only sort of showed it to him...and she wouldn't let him touch it.

While it may be shown ambiguously on purpose, I seem to remember him saying that she locked it away for the reasons you said. At first he just knew there was a secret in the safe and then he was shocked to find her totem, as it became clear what her intentions were.

Her intentions?  I thought he already knew at that point that she didn't want to leave limbo.  Which is why he went to plant the idea.

Hmmm, one could say Arthur's dice represents that he is more depending on luck where the day takes him, whereas Adriane's chess piece shows us that she is planning things meticulously? At the same time the latter is a possible hint to her being part of manipulating Cobb. doing an inception on him.

Miles could be the orchestrator behind it all, indeed. His motive being that he wants his grandchildren to have a father again, his means that he gets to provide the architect.

At this point, I think it's possible that Mal is indeed dead, that part of Cobb's story could be true, and that he only subsequently buried himself in a dreamworld.

I think I'm leaning in that direction too.  At least for now.   

Then there is also Adriane's name itself possibly being another clue.  I can't remember exactly now, but Adriane is the name of the goddess of the maze or something like that I think.  Or someone named Adriane led one of the gods out of a maze.  I need to look it up again.  The first time she and Cobb meet, he has her draw mazes as a test.  The levels of the dream are described as mazes at least once.  That could work with the theory that the inception is being done on Cobb as well.  Though if it was, I wonder was anything shown reality?  And if it was, why would Saito go along with the plan?  Hmmmm.  

A quick google could not reveal anything about a goddess, mazes or any such thing to me.

I spelled her name wrong before.  Sorry about that.
Ariadne.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariadne#Ariadne_as_a_goddess_figure

Go down to the section on Ariadne as a goddess figure.  In that section, she is called mistress of the labyrinth, and a labyrinth is a maze.
And in one book I read, there is something about using her string to find the way out of a labyrinth..so that is what I was thinking.  So maybe it is a hint that she is leading Cobb back to reality.  Or maybe I'm over thinking.   

Cobb wanted a maze, so that if he should project Mal she would not find him too quickly.

True.  I wasn't thinking about that.  I'm probably over thinking. 

Wasn't that what we discussed before, that Cobb is the dreamer, the whole time (meaning no reality was shown at all)? We just haven't conclusively proven it yet.

Right.  I think that is a possibility, though I'm thinking it more a combination of reality and dreams, with possibly an attempt to help Cobb going on.

I think I'm leaning more to Mal being Cobb's projection as well.

We all agree on this.[/quote]

It looks like it. So maybe we've figured out something.

Now, I want to add my own idea into this mix... Saito. I'm wondering if there is more to him, though it may undermine the "it was all a dream!" ending...

No undermining going on really. It is merely a theory that we discuss whether it even is possible.

Right..and not even one of our favorite theories.

Interesting idea, but what would be the point? Him being the one orchestrating the inception on Mal? Why? There is two possible and very personal core points to this film:
a) Cobb's need to get back to his children.
b)someone trying to get Cobb to wake up.
These would go along with Nolan's honesty you mentioned. If Saito was such a key player here, none of his motivations could be that personal, could they?

I wouldn't think so.  It seemed like Saito and Cobb only knew each other because of the job.  Unless there was another forger type person involved, pretending to be Saito.  But...why would that need to be done.     Hmm.  I don't know.

Saito is trained to protect his subconscious. I think it is not much more than a plot point to set up the fact that Fischer is trained as well.

Was it said for sure that he'd been trained for that?  If he had been, wouldn't his projections have started going after Arthur and Cobb right away, sort like what happened with Fisher?  I was thinking that maybe Saito had just heard about stealing from dreams being possible.  Though I'm honestly not sure.

Consider that we didn't see the dream set-up on the train. To paraphrase the film, "can he remember how he got there?". Could the team -including Saito- have ambushed Cobb, rather than the other way around?

Very good point.  We have no idea how they got there, so it does raise the question..does Cobb know?  Very interesting idea.  
So...if we go with that theory, why do you think the team ambushed Cobb?  Do get him to let go of the guilt associated with Mal's death?  To get him out of a dream he's stuck in?  Some other reason?

Maybe they ambushed him to have him fail, so that the following setup to do the inception on Fischer would seem more challenging?

Ok.  Though why would they want the job with Fisher to be more challenging?  To seem more believable to Cobb? 

Is Cobb dreaming the whole thing or is he part of someone elses from the start? Mal or Saito, maybe...Remember the idea that you train your sub-concious to fight for you and it manifests the thugs? Were the gunmen in Mogadishu really from that company, or... I'll leave it there!

[...]

Ohhh..that reminds me.  One thing I read the other night suggested that when Cobb is running through Mogadishu that he is in a dream then.  The person who made that suggestion pointed out how so many thugs are chasing him and also how that alley or whatever gets so narrow and he seems stuck, but then he just gets out just in time.

I had the same idea about the guys in Mogadishu earlier today, weighing the different ideas we discussed so far. I mean sure, he is a suspected murderer, but would the FBI/CIA really send such a strong army after him who shoots around like that with risking the life of innocent bystanders? It made more sense to me suddenly that they were indeed his own projections.

I thought they were just goons from the company that was supposed to have hired Cobb and Arthur to steal ..whatever from Saito to begin with.  When they go to leave, Cobb says that the company - he mentions a name, but I can't remember it now - that they will know the job failed.  And I think when he first meets with Eames, Cobbs mentions something about the company being after him.  And if it is just the company that is trying to kill him there, that does seem a bit more far fetched that a company would have hired goons trying to kill someone in broad daylight.

[Dragonfire]

I just found this..it has more about Ariadne leading someone out of the labyrinth.  It is under the section called tribute.

http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Ariadne.html

So maybe the character having that name is a hint that she is leading Cobb out of the maze of the dream he is stuck in.

[Najemikon]

Ok, I'm starting to have a problem with Cobb actually being in a dream from the start. Let's rewind a little...

If that's true, it entirely undermines the Fischer storyline and makes a mockery of his moment at his father's death bed. That is such an elegant and clever set-up that to diffuse it is a bit cheap. This is what I meant earlier about Nolan and his honesty. I don't think he would do all that just for sleight of hand. You have to consider the emotional focus of a narrative and in that scene in the vault, we are right with Fischer.

Now if Cobb isn't dreaming at the start, it in no way writes off any of the other intrigue you have discussed, in fact it fits in even neater that Caine (can't remember character name) could be more important than we think. His comment, "come back to reality", contriving Ariadne's (I was getting her name wrong too!) involvement and her similarity to mythology may be synonyms for us, the audience, to help us understand their involvement, but not an explicit reference to what they are doing. Typical narrative structure to strengthen the idea, but not actually be part of it if you see what I mean.

Probably not! 

Anyway, the other thing to consider is that if we accept that Cobb is not dreaming at the start, he could still be dreaming at the end.

ARGH! But that would undermine his wish to see his children and not give his character proper closure.  Bugger... I have to stop thinking about this now...

[Najemikon]

Bugger... I have to stop thinking about this now...

Yeah. Like that was going to happen.

Actually, by concentrating on the film itself, I've come to a conclusion. Cobb is likely not dreaming. Just consider what the film is actually about.

We have a man grieving so much for his dead wife, he can't let go of her. He holds himself responsible and this guilt is stopping him moving on. He can't do his job properly and he has essentially become something he never would have while she was alive: a thief. He's only a thief so he has an excuse to stay on the run and not face up to the truth. It's his crutch, and his selfish attitude is making him keep away from his kids. He thinks he has to, but he just needs a push in the right direction. Face up to her memory, accept the truth and look to the future.

His father-in-law can see this situation and is trying to get through to him. Via him the man is introduced to a young girl, an unknown quantity even to herself probably, a stranger who can take a critical look and guide him through his memories. In another film, she might be another love interest actually.

Inception just embodies this with a dream, so we can actually see Cobb's perception of his wife. We see him literally succeed and come to terms with her memory. He accepts that his memory of her is only half of who she really was and he has to let go, otherwise she'll actually become a corrupt memory. He actually says a great line, something about accepting her faults. Remembering why she wasn't perfect. That is exactly what you have to do to overcome grief.

Coming full circle, what is his totem, really? It's an object belonging to his wife and the metaphor is clear: he cannot let go of it. There he is trying to come to terms with her memory, while at the same time, he literally won't let go for fear of losing his mind.

In another story, the object could be anything and destroying it is the step forward. I now think the shot of it spinning at the end is simply that he has walked away from it. And what it does or doesn't do is of no consequence. He no longer needs it.

Actually, I reviewed The Road the other day and that has a very similar situation.

And back to him being on the run and creating an excuse for himself? They used the same thing in Bones of all things! Her dad is on the run and telling Bones and her brother, that he has to stay away. It's better for everyone. She begs him and says it is not better. Eventually he gives himself up, Booth arrests him, but eventually, he is free. So he has earned his reward by doing something tougher than staying on the run.

[Achim]

I think I agree with that..they try to keep it completely secret.  Though Ariadne - I think I spelled her name wrong before..oops.  Anyway, Ariadne didn't show Arthur her chess piece.  He showed her his die and wouldn't let her touch it.  After she made the chess piece and was doing something to it so it would fall over, she saw Cobb.  She had it in her hand and only sort of showed it to him...and she wouldn't let him touch it.

First sign that I am loosing grip in the details. (I have a bad memory and was quite happz I made it this far )

While it may be shown ambiguously on purpose, I seem to remember him saying that she locked it away for the reasons you said. At first he just knew there was a secret in the safe and then he was shocked to find her totem, as it became clear what her intentions were.

Her intentions?  I thought he already knew at that point that she didn't want to leave limbo.  Which is why he went to plant the idea.

Second sign...

I spelled her name wrong before.  Sorry about that.
Ariadne.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariadne#Ariadne_as_a_goddess_figure

Go down to the section on Ariadne as a goddess figure.  In that section, she is called mistress of the labyrinth, and a labyrinth is a maze.
And in one book I read, there is something about using her string to find the way out of a labyrinth..so that is what I was thinking.  So maybe it is a hint that she is leading Cobb back to reality.  Or maybe I'm over thinking.   

I originally had the name from IMDb (couldn't remember any of them) and then subsequently followed your spelling, since you seemed to remember them better. We know IMDb can easily be wrong.

Since we prefer the other theory, let's just say they gave her an appropriate name matching her abilities...

Saito is trained to protect his subconscious. I think it is not much more than a plot point to set up the fact that Fischer is trained as well.

Was it said for sure that he'd been trained for that?  If he had been, wouldn't his projections have started going after Arthur and Cobb right away, sort like what happened with Fisher?  I was thinking that maybe Saito had just heard about stealing from dreams being possible.  Though I'm honestly not sure.

Actually, no, he wasn't trained per se, or just a little bit. He did not recognize that he is in a dreamworld until the carpet incident...

Maybe they ambushed him to have him fail, so that the following setup to do the inception on Fischer would seem more challenging?

Ok.  Though why would they want the job with Fisher to be more challenging?  To seem more believable to Cobb?

I didn't mean the job should be more challenging, but it should be an appropriate challenge that Cobb will be intrigued to accept. But hey. I was just going with the theory Jon had thrown out. maybe he'll address it.

I thought they were just goons from the company that was supposed to have hired Cobb and Arthur to steal ..whatever from Saito to begin with.  When they go to leave, Cobb says that the company - he mentions a name, but I can't remember it now - that they will know the job failed.  And I think when he first meets with Eames, Cobbs mentions something about the company being after him.  And if it is just the company that is trying to kill him there, that does seem a bit more far fetched that a company would have hired goons trying to kill someone in broad daylight.

That makes sense! I just went with FBI/CIA since he talked about the problem why he can't go back (police thinking he killed Mal). hence I connected the killer team with that.

Anyway, the other thing to consider is that if we accept that Cobb is not dreaming at the start, he could still be dreaming at the end.

ARGH! But that would undermine his wish to see his children and not give his character proper closure.  Bugger... I have to stop thinking about this now...

Marie (I am fairly certain) and me are totally with you on this. I think Critter mentioned the theory that the whole thing may have been a dream, which she had read somewhere; she didn't entirely agree either, I think. My personal ideal would be, that the beginning is not a dream and yes, the end shouldn't be a dream either. His totem somewhat confirms that, yet the age of the children still has me baffled.

[Achim]

We have a man grieving so much for his dead wife, he can't let go of her. He holds himself responsible and this guilt is stopping him moving on. He can't do his job properly and he has essentially become something he never would have while she was alive: a thief. He's only a thief so he has an excuse to stay on the run and not face up to the truth. It's his crutch, and his selfish attitude is making him keep away from his kids. He thinks he has to, but he just needs a push in the right direction. Face up to her memory, accept the truth and look to the future.

His father-in-law can see this situation and is trying to get through to him. Via him the man is introduced to a young girl, an unknown quantity even to herself probably, a stranger who can take a critical look and guide him through his memories. In another film, she might be another love interest actually.

Inception just embodies this with a dream, so we can actually see Cobb's perception of his wife. We see him literally succeed and come to terms with her memory. He accepts that his memory of her is only half of who she really was and he has to let go, otherwise she'll actually become a corrupt memory. He actually says a great line, something about accepting her faults. Remembering why she wasn't perfect. That is exactly what you have to do to overcome grief.

Coming full circle, what is his totem, really? It's an object belonging to his wife and the metaphor is clear: he cannot let go of it. There he is trying to come to terms with her memory, while at the same time, he literally won't let go for fear of losing his mind.

In another story, the object could be anything and destroying it is the step forward. I now think the shot of it spinning at the end is simply that he has walked away from it. And what it does or doesn't do is of no consequence. He no longer needs it.

This is exactly how I saw it. So, no counter argument from me.

Again, we just drifted off about that other theory because it was there (like that elephant in the room), basically hoping we could rip it apart.

That letting go part is actually done quite beautifully and essentially represents entirely his though process.

[Najemikon]

I did mean to apologise in case I was repeating anything from earlier. It's so easy to get bogged down in details you forget, just why did Nolan make this film? It's themes are the same as Memento, Prestige and the Batman movies. A process of dealing with grief and identity.

Maybe they ambushed him to have him fail, so that the following setup to do the inception on Fischer would seem more challenging?

Ok.  Though why would they want the job with Fisher to be more challenging?  To seem more believable to Cobb?

I didn't mean the job should be more challenging, but it should be an appropriate challenge that Cobb will be intrigued to accept. But hey. I was just going with the theory Jon had thrown out. maybe he'll address it.

I'm no longer so sure, but if Saito was more involved than merely a client, it may be the test run was contrived to give Cobb a wobble. Show him his abilities are fallible, so he remembers how important it is.

[Achim]

I did mean to apologise in case I was repeating anything from earlier. It's so easy to get bogged down in details you forget, just why did Nolan make this film? It's themes are the same as Memento, Prestige and the Batman movies. A process of dealing with grief and identity.

No worries. From what I could tell we had already repeated some ideas back and forth, just to make they sit right or to expose them. So, having them run by another guy can only help

[Dragonfire]

Ok, I'm starting to have a problem with Cobb actually being in a dream from the start. Let's rewind a little...

If that's true, it entirely undermines the Fischer storyline and makes a mockery of his moment at his father's death bed. That is such an elegant and clever set-up that to diffuse it is a bit cheap. This is what I meant earlier about Nolan and his honesty. I don't think he would do all that just for sleight of hand. You have to consider the emotional focus of a narrative and in that scene in the vault, we are right with Fischer.

That is a very good point about everything with Fisher.  It does seem to start off as just a means to an end to get the job done, but that part does become more emotional as things progress.

Also, while I did have a fleeting thought about the entire thing being a dream, I never really liked that idea.  Some other stuff didn't seem to work as well with that idea.

Now if Cobb isn't dreaming at the start, it in no way writes off any of the other intrigue you have discussed, in fact it fits in even neater that Caine (can't remember character name) could be more important than we think. His comment, "come back to reality", contriving Ariadne's (I was getting her name wrong too!) involvement and her similarity to mythology may be synonyms for us, the audience, to help us understand their involvement, but not an explicit reference to what they are doing. Typical narrative structure to strengthen the idea, but not actually be part of it if you see what I mean.

Probably not! 

Caine's character is Miles..I can spell his name right at least.  lol  I do think he has been more involved than he seems.  And that comment about coming back to reality seems very important...along with the fact that he is the one who gets Ariadne involved. 
Ohhhh...just remembered something.  At first Ariadne wasn't supposed to go into the dream, but she talked her way into it over Cobb's objection.  Cobb said he promised Miles, but he was convinced by her.  So maybe that is also pointing to her manipulating him into dealing with his issues.  If she wasn't in the dream, she could push and prod at him like she did.

Anyway, the other thing to consider is that if we accept that Cobb is not dreaming at the start, he could still be dreaming at the end.

That is very true.  Though I would like to think he made it home, I can see the possibility that he is stuck in limbo or a dream.

I just remembered something else.  When they meet with the chemist guy...Yusuf or something like that, Cobb tries using the sedative.  We have no idea how long he was really under.  And it was after that that he tried to spin the totem and was interrupted by Saito.   So if more of the movie was a dream, maybe that is when the dream started to try to get Cobb to deal with his guilt over Mal.  Though Fisher would have to be a projection or something for the rest of it to work.  Hmmmm.   

ARGH! But that would undermine his wish to see his children and not give his character proper closure.  Bugger... I have to stop thinking about this now...

Well, maybe.  But if he thinks he's in reality, or has chosen to accept it is reality, then there is still some closure.  I think. 

 

[Dragonfire]

Yeah. Like that was going to happen.

I understand the feeling.

Actually, by concentrating on the film itself, I've come to a conclusion. Cobb is likely not dreaming. Just consider what the film is actually about.

We have a man grieving so much for his dead wife, he can't let go of her. He holds himself responsible and this guilt is stopping him moving on. He can't do his job properly and he has essentially become something he never would have while she was alive: a thief. He's only a thief so he has an excuse to stay on the run and not face up to the truth. It's his crutch, and his selfish attitude is making him keep away from his kids. He thinks he has to, but he just needs a push in the right direction. Face up to her memory, accept the truth and look to the future.

Right.  I had forgotten he said something about having to become a thief because of the problems.  I don't think he originally set out to steal ideas from the dreams of others.  That does work as a reason to stay away from them.  When he talked to them on the phone he said he had to work.  I agree he needs to be pushed to deal with the issues tied to Mal so he can fully move on.

His father-in-law can see this situation and is trying to get through to him. Via him the man is introduced to a young girl, an unknown quantity even to herself probably, a stranger who can take a critical look and guide him through his memories. In another film, she might be another love interest actually.

Yes.  And she is somehow able to push at Cobb a bit more about those memories and the situation with Mal.  When Arthur tries to bring it up, Cobb brushes it off..but when she starts poking into it, he does actually start to admit he's got a problem and has to deal with it.  It is gradual, but it happens.  Maybe he felt more like he could talk to her about that stuff because she is more of a stranger.

I can't remember if it is said, but did Arthur know Mal when she was alive?  Or does he just know the projections? 

Inception just embodies this with a dream, so we can actually see Cobb's perception of his wife. We see him literally succeed and come to terms with her memory. He accepts that his memory of her is only half of who she really was and he has to let go, otherwise she'll actually become a corrupt memory. He actually says a great line, something about accepting her faults. Remembering why she wasn't perfect. That is exactly what you have to do to overcome grief.

Coming full circle, what is his totem, really? It's an object belonging to his wife and the metaphor is clear: he cannot let go of it. There he is trying to come to terms with her memory, while at the same time, he literally won't let go for fear of losing his mind.

In another story, the object could be anything and destroying it is the step forward. I now think the shot of it spinning at the end is simply that he has walked away from it. And what it does or doesn't do is of no consequence. He no longer needs it.

Good point.  The totem could be more of his tie to Mal than a way to check if he is in a dream or not.  Once he accepts and lets go, he doesn't need that tie anymore.  I didn't think of that before, but it makes sense.

Actually, I reviewed The Road the other day and that has a very similar situation.

And back to him being on the run and creating an excuse for himself? They used the same thing in Bones of all things! Her dad is on the run and telling Bones and her brother, that he has to stay away. It's better for everyone. She begs him and says it is not better. Eventually he gives himself up, Booth arrests him, but eventually, he is free. So he has earned his reward by doing something tougher than staying on the run.

That's right...Bones did do that.  lol.  Forgot all about that.

[Dragonfire]

First sign that I am loosing grip in the details. (I have a bad memory and was quite happz I made it this far )

No problem.  With some movies, I can't remember names and stuff right after they are over.  I'm sure I'm not remembering everything perfectly from this one either, though I have tried to keep track of some things.  But there are things I can't remember exactly.  Life if the totem is shown to stop spinning in a few spots or if I just assumed that it did.

While it may be shown ambiguously on purpose, I seem to remember him saying that she locked it away for the reasons you said. At first he just knew there was a secret in the safe and then he was shocked to find her totem, as it became clear what her intentions were.

Her intentions?  I thought he already knew at that point that she didn't want to leave limbo.  Which is why he went to plant the idea.[/quote]
Second sign... [/quote]

I might be remembering that wrong though.  And I think I mentioned earlier, I can't remember if the totem was actually in the safe when he found it, or if he took and put in it in there.

I originally had the name from IMDb (couldn't remember any of them) and then subsequently followed your spelling, since you seemed to remember them better. We know IMDb can easily be wrong.

Since we prefer the other theory, let's just say they gave her an appropriate name matching her abilities...

I had to keep checking her name originally too.  Then I was trying to remember when I started posting here..and well.  We see how well that worked.    So I looked it up again.
I think I like the idea that she is helping him deal with the guilt and everything so he can move on.  Then it makes more sense for how she keeps pushing at Cobb and demanding to know more about Mal..even joining him in a dream that one time.

Actually, no, he wasn't trained per se, or just a little bit. He did not recognize that he is in a dreamworld until the carpet incident...

Ok.  That's what I was thinking, but I wasn't sure I remembered right.  Also, in the first part of that dream that we see..which would be the second dream..when Cobb is talking to Saito about training him to protect his mind and all that.  Do we know if Saito was already suspicious?  Or was it just because Mal found him and blabbed?  I can't remember for sure, but I think I remember Arthur and Cobb talking like they think he is suspicious. 

I do remember the carpet tipping him off in the other part of that dream.  Though do you think he really would have noticed that sort of detail if he hadn't had at least a little training in protecting himself?  And didn't he say something after that about his projections showing up and dealing with them, only to have the architect say it was his dream instead?  So the more I think about it, the more I think Saito had at least a little bit of knowledge and training. 

I didn't mean the job should be more challenging, but it should be an appropriate challenge that Cobb will be intrigued to accept. But hey. I was just going with the theory Jon had thrown out. maybe he'll address it.

Ahhh.. ok.  That I can see.  They want to make sure that Cobb will take the job so they can get him to deal with his issues with Mal.  If Cobb had rejected the job, then they would have to start over.  Being able to see his kids again if he succeeds is a bit motivator too I think.

Though I have wondered, if Cobb is wanted for murder and can't set foot in the country, then how can Saito make that go away with one call?  Who the heck is he?

I thought they were just goons from the company that was supposed to have hired Cobb and Arthur to steal ..whatever from Saito to begin with.  When they go to leave, Cobb says that the company - he mentions a name, but I can't remember it now - that they will know the job failed.  And I think when he first meets with Eames, Cobbs mentions something about the company being after him.  And if it is just the company that is trying to kill him there, that does seem a bit more far fetched that a company would have hired goons trying to kill someone in broad daylight.

That makes sense! I just went with FBI/CIA since he talked about the problem why he can't go back (police thinking he killed Mal). hence I connected the killer team with that.

Ok.  Though maybe having those goons from that company after him is part of the set up to try to push him into the job for Saito..and into position for whoever - I'm thinking Miles is the mastermind if this happened - to have inception done on him to let Mal go.  So maybe Saito is in on the...master plan even at that point, and something else would have happened in the dreams to cause things to go wrong.
Wait!!  I just remembered.  Cobb gets information from the safe in the part of the dream when Mal shows up.  But in the other part of the dream, he says that part of the information is missing, that Saito had it locked away deeper or something like that.  That could be the set up for the job to go wrong from the beginning, so then Saito would have the reason to go to Cobb and offer the other job.  So that first job to get information from Saito could have all been a set up.  If it was, I'm thinking Arthur might known something about it.  He does seem to want Cobb to deal with things.  I would still go with Miles as the Mastermind.  Saito could be someone else that Miles trained..he'd done it before with Cobb.  I get the feeling that Miles has been concerned with Cobb's state of mind for a while, and he wants the kids to see their dad again.  Once Cobb took the bait so to speak, and went to Miles for an architect, then the rest of the plan went into motion.

Marie (I am fairly certain) and me are totally with you on this. I think Critter mentioned the theory that the whole thing may have been a dream, which she had read somewhere; she didn't entirely agree either, I think. My personal ideal would be, that the beginning is not a dream and yes, the end shouldn't be a dream either. His totem somewhat confirms that, yet the age of the children still has me baffled.

I never really liked the theory that the entire movie was a dream.  I did read a few theories like that someone else and I think I mentioned them earlier.  One person thinks Cobb is in his own dream the whole movie from being stuck there after trying to escape limbo.  Someone else thought he was just sleeping on the beach while the kids and Mal played in the sand.  I didn't like that idea.  I am going more with the beginning isn't a dream - well once they are on the train, it isn't a dream.  I also like the idea that he is back with the kids at the end.

I honestly can't remember how the kids looked.  I get that when he remembers them, they always look the same.  I'm just not sure they look the same ages at the very end when he sees their faces, or if they are wearing the same clothes.  I know some people think they are.  Also, we don't know how much time has passed.  We don't know how long he's really been away from them, so they may not have changed a lot.  Or if -and this is a big if - if he'd been stuck in a dream, time passes faster in the dream...so depending on how long he was dreaming, not as much time may have actually passed in reality.  If he'd gone a few levels deep, a lot of time could pass.  Though, if he was already that deep, I don't know that he could go deeper like he did for the Fisher job.  Ack.. 
Well anyway, the main point is we don't know how much time has passed since he last saw his kids. 

[Najemikon]

Plus, kids don't always age a huge amount around that time. We only see them from the back and that final scene is set-up to be identical to his memory, except for them turning around. Now, from behind, would say, a four year old look so different from a six?

Oh and earlier, you were trying to remember if Arthur knew Mal? He absolutely did. Ariadne asked him what was she like, and he replies simply, but earnestly, "she was lovely".