Topic: Roger Ebert is an Idiot

[Alien Redrum]

Alien, I didn't see your reply until I'd spent way too long on that one!

But I do address your points. More specifically though, I'm sure Red Dead is gorgeous, but artistic skill is not a measure of whether it is art. In The Searchers, there is a correlation between Ethan's soul and the environment. Ford could have line drawn a cartoon and got the same effect, so photo-real landscapes is not where it's at.

And I think that's where the subjective part comes in. You are looking for one particular thing when it comes to art, I am looking for something else. Do I think popping a bad guy in the head is art?  , no, but I do think there are plenty of games out there that have artistic merit for what I'm looking for (I go for the more visual, as opposed to the inner struggles and such).

To be clear (as we haven't interacted that much and this is the web, after all), I'm not criticizing what you look for. I'm not even judging it. It's just not what I look for, so to me (and many others), it's art.

As you said...

And I agree Jackson Pollack was a mess. But he presented it to be considered; why did he do such a mess and why are we bothering? I don't bother, it's shite.

...we are in definite agreement, but does that mean it's not art?

Stupid art being subjective. 

That said, that will be the last thing I say to you as I'm blocking you.

Michael Bay will never be an Auteur...

YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT AND YOU WILL NEVER KNOW ART EVER. 

 

[northbloke]

Jon, I don't understand why you think something interactive can't be art, or why art can't be interactive. I've been to a number of exhibitions where the public are invited to interact with the pieces and consequently creating a unique experience only a few are privy to.

I'm certainly not saying every game is a work of art, just like every film isn't, and it's a very early medium comparitively. But there are some involving, moving games out there. And when I say moving, I'm talking about emotionally investing in the characters not just the sense of accomplishment over beating a difficult section. The ending of Red Dead Redemption moved me because I had connected with the character, just like in a good film or book, what happens to the protagonist affects you inside.
And yes games can morally challenge you if you've emotionally invested in the characters. If you watch a good character do a bad thing in a film it makes you feel something, just as it does if you make a good character do a bad thing in a game - in fact even more so because it was your choice to do it. I think a good example is in Modern warfare 2 where...

(click to show/hide)

your character (undercover) has to join in on a terrorist attack on an airport. How you approach that section is up to you. It's not a choice based on difficulty but morality.

Of course video games can't be compared to Shakespeare et al. but look at how long writing was around before he turned up!

In short I agree with the OP simply because Ebert has written off an entire artform without even researching it or giving it a chance, regardless of how well respected a film critic he is.

[northbloke]

William Shakespeare and Michael Bay in the same thread... who'd have thunk it! 

 

[snowcat]

...Ok firstly.... Really?

That said, that will be the last thing I say to you as I'm blocking you.

..This thread seems to be getting overly heated for something so many people consider subjective,   its going around in circles. I can't see any end to his debate... Ever.


*gets popcorn to watch the fireworks*

[Jimmy]

Of course video games can't be compared to Shakespeare et al. but look at how long writing was around before he turned up!

The Old Testament was written more than 2000 years ago and it's a good reading : full of violence, revenge and frightening moment. But maybe it's sacrilege to call it a work of art

...Ok firstly.... Really?

That said, that will be the last thing I say to you as I'm blocking you.

..This thread seems to be getting overly heated for something so many people consider subjective,  its going around in circles. I can't see any end to his debate... Ever.

I'm 100% positive it's a joke in relation with the DVDP forum Emma

[northbloke]

I think you missed the   directly under that Emma, Alien was just kidding... as long as no one else disses the Bay anyway...  

[northbloke]

The Old Testament was written more than 2000 years ago and it's a good reading : full of violence, revenge and frightening moment. But maybe it's sacrilege to call it a work of art

Maybe so, but it's not a patch on Dan Brown! 

[Jimmy]

Never read Dan Brown
But I know a little about his books (it will be hard not to) and that he had some crazy twillightesque fans I think

[Alien Redrum]

I think a good example is in Modern warfare 2 where...

(click to show/hide)

your character (undercover) has to join in on a terrorist attack on an airport. How you approach that section is up to you. It's not a choice based on difficulty but morality.

Off topic, but that part in the game really made me feel dirty. I know it's a game, but that just wasn't right. 

...Ok firstly.... Really?

That said, that will be the last thing I say to you as I'm blocking you.

..This thread seems to be getting overly heated for something so many people consider subjective,  its going around in circles. I can't see any end to his debate... Ever.

I'm 100% positive it's a joke in relation with the DVDP forum Emma

Jimmy is absolutely correct. Definitely a joke. Although I really do love Bay. 

[Najemikon]

And I think that's where the subjective part comes in. You are looking for one particular thing when it comes to art, I am looking for something else. Do I think popping a bad guy in the head is art?  , no, but I do think there are plenty of games out there that have artistic merit for what I'm looking for (I go for the more visual, as opposed to the inner struggles and such).

To be clear (as we haven't interacted that much and this is the web, after all), I'm not criticizing what you look for. I'm not even judging it. It's just not what I look for, so to me (and many others), it's art.

As you said...

And I agree Jackson Pollack was a mess. But he presented it to be considered; why did he do such a mess and why are we bothering? I don't bother, it's shite.

...we are in definite agreement, but does that mean it's not art?

Stupid art being subjective. 

That said, that will be the last thing I say to you as I'm blocking you.

Michael Bay will never be an Auteur...

YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT AND YOU WILL NEVER KNOW ART EVER. 

 

Just to be clear, I never took this seriously!

And Emma, this isn't heated! This is a proper, interesting debate, where soon, I shall be proved RIGHT!  This is what I meant earlier about opinions (which are like arseholes, according to Clint Eastwood) that too quickly on the Internet, someone says "but we can all disagree because it's just an opinion". It's used like a get out of jail free card!

Anyway. Alien, just because you like something, doesn't make it art. Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it worthless. Just because the artist has no talent, doesn't reduce the worth of the message. I happen to think Pollack is art, but his message is pretentious, so therefore, pointless.

I suppose, coming around to a different perspective, something becomes "Art" in the way I think of it, based on how people react to it and how it is accepted into culture.

People don't react heavily to games. They play them, say it was cool/crap/awesome, then wait for part 2. Pollack or Tracey Emmin or Damien Hurst produce worthless, pretentious tat, but the reactions are huge and tell us something about our society.

There's also the issue of time. Let's say you had to wait twenty years before a particular work had proved its worth to appear in a national gallery of important cultural works of art. 1990 had loads of music, film and books to choose from. But what game? I can't think of one.

I suppose I see art as a cultural milestone that generations can look back on and come to some understanding of that time. What would they learn from old computer games?

"Crap graphics, pre organic chipsets, weren't they?"

Because that's the other thing. Games are handicapped by technology and date very quickly. Books, film, painting and music don't. They also don't require backwards compatible emulators to display them decades later!

[Antares]

Michael Bay will never be an Auteur, yet the mere existence of his film means they should be considered art? That I find slightly... cheap.

  Bravo sir!

[Alien Redrum]

Michael Bay will never be an Auteur, yet the mere existence of his film means they should be considered art? That I find slightly... cheap.

  Bravo sir!

 

I beg to differ. At one time Wiki had him in the Auteur Theory entry.

(click to show/hide)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

[Antares]

Michael Bay will never be an Auteur, yet the mere existence of his film means they should be considered art? That I find slightly... cheap.

  Bravo sir!

 

I beg to differ. At one time Wiki had him in the Auteur Theory entry.

(click to show/hide)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

Wiki - The McDonalds of knowledge. 

[Critter]

It appears that Ebert has seen the error of his ways with this issue.

I was a fool for mentioning video games in the first place. I would never express an opinion on a movie I hadn't seen. Yet I declared as an axiom that video games can never be Art. I still believe this, but I should never have said so. Some opinions are best kept to yourself.

As Ebert states, he still keeps his opinion, which is something that never bothered me as he deserves his own opinion, but he has withdrawn that brash way that he threw it in everyones face stating that they will "never" be art.

In the end the thing that got me so mad was that he went into all these accusations with have very little, almost no experience with games, and he has admitted to this, which has somewhat put him back into a decent light in my books. He made an idiot of himself but saw his mistake and apologised for it.

I should not have written that entry without being more familiar with the actual experience of video games.

The full blog entry is here: http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2010/07/okay_kids_play_on_my_lawn.html