Topic: I'm tired of Hollywood's toying with chronological facts.

[Touti]

Karsten have you seen the movie "White Nights" with Barishnikov, Gregory Hines and Isabella Rossellini ?  Maybe I have too much influence from American movies but I was always under the impression that the life in GDR was similar to the one portrayed in White Nights and other movies showing life in communist countries.

[DJ Doena]

(btw: I made an additional edit to my previous post)

Karsten have you seen the movie "White Nights" with Barishnikov, Gregory Hines and Isabella Rossellini ?  Maybe I have too much influence from American movies but I was always under the impression that the life in GDR was similar to the one portrayed in White Nights and other movies showing life in communist countries.

No I haven't seen it and I can't really speak for other "socialist" countries because I've never been to any of them, neither back then nor now, but when I see documentaries from there I know with certainty that it wasn't that bad back then in the GDR. I've visted many places in the GDR via summer camps or on vacation and though I was only 11 at the end of the GDR one simply remembers certain things.

Unfortunately we hadn't camcorders back then and official material was obviously propaganda so there's very vew actual video footage of the life in the GDR.

[Touti]

That's a very interesting discussion, I think our last big one was on King Arthur, that was a while ago.  I hope Mathias will jump in and share his views on it.

[DJ Doena]

I have to make an additional constraint to my statements: East Berlin was not only the capital of the GDR it was also the figurehead for the GDR. Sometimes leaving the city limits of Berlin also marked the virtual "Ende der Versorgungszone" ("end of of the supply zone").

[lyonsden5]

Wow, very interesting reading this morning. 

[richierich]

Wow, very interesting reading this morning. 

seconded - was good reading with my coffee   

[Touti]

Mathias, if this is taking a turn that's uncomfortable to you in any way don't hesitate to pm me about it.

This whole discussions brings up a very interesting question.

Can a person truly redeem himself/herself.  Reading this thread, it is obvious to me that Mathias has some painful memories of this period, enough painful that he doesn't want to join the discussion.

I don't know anything about his life now and before the wall fell but his comment where he said "Except for the Good Stazi", when replying to Jon's suggestion that "The Lives of Others" was successful at showing the reality of things, leads me to think that he doesn't believe a Stazi could become good.

Assuming for one moment that Jon's interpretation of this movie is right and what we see is a bad person becoming a good one (in simple terms), would that make up for what he has done before ?

If it is really possible to change and become a good person after being a very bad one for years, would that in itself redeem that person ?  Would that make up for all the bad things done before ?

If Wiesler in the movie has really opened his mind and changed, is that enough to forget what he's done before ?  Is it enough to consider what he's done as heroïc ?  Shouldn't he still be punished one way or another and pay for what he's done to people ?

How much good does a bad person have to do to be forgiven, if ever, for the bad he's done !

[Najemikon]

Good post, Eric. Hard questions, with all sorts of mitigating circumstances stopping easy answers. Clint Eastwood's Unforgiven asks a few of them with rather cynical results. Magnificent though. Wiesler at least is incorruptible, which should always be a good quality, but in a situation like this I don't know.

Without knowing much background about what actually happened, I think I would agree with the article Matthias linked. This man could not exist. To be so committed, so unbreakable, I think he would have already come to terms with his own situation enough to not be affected by what spies on. If he was truly lonely and hopeless, he'd probably have given in to the same temptation his colleagues were benefiting from so much.

To not give in requires a more honourable soul than someone who could support and promote such a regime.

On the other hand, what was the purpose of the GDR? It must have been created by men with solid reasons and beliefs far beyond self-indulgence, so perhaps Wiesler is the last of those men with such strength of character (not a positive attribute in this sense) proving there was time limit on how long it could continue. 

That's why I suggested that the Wiesler character was part fantasy, a way for the writers to embody hope, even if it was unintended to come off like that. A way of saying it was worth holding on to your beliefs because it had to end if even perfect Stasi officers were questioning their purpose.

[Najemikon]

Completely by accidental web surfing, I came across this site: Film Education for an organisation that promotes film studies in schools at all levels. They provide screenings and material for teachers to use in studies.

It looks like an interesting, well presented site anyway and an excellent project, but they happen to have material on The Lives of Others. I downloaded a PDF which explains how the GDR came about, so some of you may find it useful.

I'm going to keep this site handy. Looks really good.